Rep Power: 696

Well the time had to come...my first ticket..and it's quite a bill....I got a fail to stop at an Amber light charge and it's $180 total. I was doing about 60 on Dundas East and I was going by River st headed eastbound to teh DVP. The light turned amber and I tried to brake but the road was kinda wet and the tires need changing so I slid and spotted the cop car on the intersection right when i started to brake so I came off the brake and get down to about 45 and was hoping they wouldn't budge but woot woot I got pulled over. So he came out and asked if I ever got a ticket I said no, he asked for my licence and reg. and went back to his car and came back with the ticket and handed it over and said he won't gimme failed to stop at a red light but will gimme fail to stop at an amber light. Here's the part I'm thinking might be going to court for......The ticket reads that the offence was committed at...
GERRARD STREET E and RIVER ST ......but in fact it was @ DUNDAS E. and RIVER St .....So would I win that in court and is it worth a try? Does anyone have a similar experience? How would I go about fighting the ticket??? Thanks

 
Rep Power: 716

They can amend that in court easily enough.

But let's see, basics of the case... on Dundas at River which is a busy vehicle and pedestrian location, and is no more than a 50 km zone and maybe even a 40, but you're doing 60, on worn out tires, on wet roads, and wet street car tracks as a bonus.... what would you have done if it were a kid in front of you instead of a yellow light?

But no, they can fix the location of offence in court easily enough.

 
Rep Power: 746

If you were going to fight it i would do something along the lines of this...

I would say there were wet conditions out and it would have been unsafe for you to brake in the situation as you did not have enough room to bring the vehicle to complete stop before the stop line.

I mean we all make the call every time we go out driving. If you don't think its safe or by your judgement unable to stop then you go through the amber light. If you can barely brake in time the person behind you may rar end you. Ofcourse this is not a perfect world and you may be able to use the weather conditions to your advantage. I would not say that your tires were in poor condition as that is only your fault.

Good luck

 
Rep Power: 696

True....it's bad news...I was actually wondering after the fact if speeding through the green would have been better?? Man now I think maybe I shouldnt have even braked and then I would not have skidded and given it away...Just when I saw them I hesitated and hit the brake...Oh well, so no chance in court eh? Tough but valuable lesson learnt....have good tires and brake for just such things among others. But really people need to stop doing 30-35 on dundas. That's what got to me. Anywaz If anyone else can ring in on this with a suggestion whether it agrees with gldwngr or not that would be appreciated.

Thanks there crazyae...that makes sense as a defence, cuz really no pedestrian would have been in the way unless they were jaywalking...and I could probably at least get the ticket reduced no? I'm not sure if they can reduce it anywaz cuz the set fine is $150.00 and he added $30 for applicable victim fine surcharge..??

 
Rep Power: 716

Not quite good enough. The JP will say that you must drive in a manner appropriate to road and weather conditions, and had you been doing so, you would have been able to come to a safe stop in time.

Also not a valid assumption, particularly in the downtown core.

 
Rep Power: 701

The only way you'll beat this one is if the cop lost sight of you at any time or if the cop was in a poor position to judge your position when the light changed.

if you admitted to running the amber light to the cop. pay it, you have no chance....


a lesson to all, never admit guilt to a cop, it always stands up in court.

 
Rep Power: 696

that's not funny cuz both are against me ...he was on the left side of the intersection at the front of the line-up and could easily see the light and my position and it was 2 of them so I doubt they lost sight of my car.

he asked if I knew why he pulled me over and I said...yeh I'm pretty sure so da coppa just :SHILLACKE me

Man I just focused too hard on the right side to keep an eye out for right turners and that damn blinking hand ...turned my attention to the other side of the street and

Question Though----- should I take it to court anywaz and delay paying the ticket and hope the cop doesn't show?

 
Rep Power: 716

That blinking hand is a strong hint that the light, if not already amber, will soon turn to amber.

Now you didn't just happen to see the hint offered by that blinking hand and speed up trying to make the light, did you?

 
Rep Power: 696

I did but when I went across the light I was doing 40ish cuz I looked down at my speedometer. The light hit amber right when I was at the last pedestrian crossing line on my side of River and I'm assuming that it hit red when i got to the other side. I've pretty much decided on going to court but one question I have is ,does a fail to stop at an amber mean that i attempted to stop and couldn't or I just drove through the amber light?

well today was call around to the ticket fighters and see what they say...the first guy was by far the most helpful and said fight it for the following reasons:-

1) it could have been more dangerous if you did stop that suddenly
2)let the cop mention the intersection on th eticket a few times and then state the fact that it is not that intersection
3)you were in plain sight of the officer and would not attempt something stupid
4)there was no pedestrian or vehicle making the left turn and I was the first vehicle at the intersection
5) amber light -fail to stop isf for when the light is amber before you enter the intersection and red upon entering the intersection (which isn't the case as the light turned green to amber upon me entering and red at exiting the intersection)
6)I will probably get at least the demerit points taken off cuz it's a first time offence and have a clean record


Any thoughts? I'm gonna dispute the charge.

 
Rep Power: 716

Mostly good points. Gldwngr fails to point out the importance of credibility, particularly in cases like this. This case comes down to your word against the officers, and regardless of whether they can amend the location on the citation in court, the fact that the officer recorded the information incorrectly doesn't help his credibility - particularly if you let him mention it a few times (which he is likely to do at trial during the prosecutor's initial questioning).

In my opinion, you have a good chance of having this thrown out by a JP at trial, and you have nothing to lose by doing so. In point of fact, you have the most to lose by not doing so, since prosecutors are notoriously unwilling to amend red or amber light charges (the HTA offers very little room for movement on these charges).

For the record, as I've pointed out many times, the JP cannot in any way, shape, or form, change the charge or the demerit points associated with it. If you plead guilty to Amber or Red Light - Fail to stop, the demerit points are mandatory. If the prosecutor can find a similar lesser charge, without demerit points associated with it, he may be willing to amend your charge to the lesser charge. But again, in cases like this, it is rare.

Follow the process in it's entirety, regardless. File the ticket for a 'first attendance' appointment with the prosecutor. You'll meet with him, informally, to discuss the charge. If he's willing to ammend it to a lesser charge without demerit points associated - great. Otherwise, thank him for his time, and take the matter to trial. Be sure to request a copy of all evidence they plan to use at trial - you're entitled to this by law.

At trial, keep the points you've already listed in mind (with the exception of 6). In addition, when issuing a citation of this nature, it is a standard expectation that the issuing officer will return to the intersection within a reasonable time frame after issuing the citation, and verify that the light is functioning correctly by observing it go through a complete cycle. If the prosecutor doesn't ask the officer this during his initial questioning, be sure you ask the officer if he followed this process. Most JP's are quite aware that few officers really go back to verify the function of the light, and regardless of the officer's response, it's to your advantage that he be compelled to state it on the record.

Keep in mind, it's not criminal court. The JP must decide if, based on a balance of probabilities, you mostly likely committed this offense. If both your story and the officer's story are equally probable to the JP, he or she, by precedent, will generally give you the benefit of the doubt and dismiss the charge.

 
Rep Power: 696

Thanks a million for the advice. I have a question though. When you say file the ticket for a first attendance appointment with the JP, do I do that when I go to the offences office to say that I would like to dispute the charge?

As well, it was a divisional officer which I've been told are not great with following through on traffic offences and especially from the division that the officer is from.

I appreciate the words of wisdom.

 
Rep Power: 716

You go to the provincial offenses office and tell them you'd like to file your ticket for a first attendance appointment. That's an appointment with the prosecutor, not the JP - don't confuse those, or you'll have yourself in trouble. At the same time you file for a first attendance appointment, you may also want to ask for a 'disclosure form', and if possible, fill this out and hand it back to the clerk at the office. This is your formal request that the prosecutor provide you with all evidence he intends to use against you at trial.

Keep in mind - only the prosecutor can offer you a reduced charge, and the reduction in points that comes with it. The JP has no authority to do so.

If the prosecutor is unwilling to offer you a reduced charge, take this to trial. If the officer doesn't show up at trial, you can ask the JP to dismiss the case.

 
Rep Power: 696

Thanks. I've already started to put together my support documents while the incident is fresh in my mind. I read a document which I will soon be putting forth to hopefully be stickied that said that after 8 months I can file a motion for the case to be dismissed due to not being provided with a trial in a resonable amount of time. And knowing T.O. backlog I'm pretty sure that will be the case.

 
Rep Power: 746

i think overall you have a good chance to atleast get the points taken off , but still having to pay the fine. Some of the other issues like wrong intersection could lead to the case being thrown out, but i highly doubt it. I can see yourself just walking away with a fine.

 
Rep Power: 716

It's already been said. He won't be able to walk with just a fine unless the prosecutor agrees to take a plea on an similar HTA charge that carries no points. I can't think of other possible HTA charges any myself that might reasonably fit the circumstances, other than perhaps careless driving. That one carries more points so I don't think he wants to go there. Points are assigned bty MTO based on the offence you are convicted of. The prosecutor or JP have no power to change them unless they also change the underlying charge that you will be convicted of.

Re 8 months and "violation of rights".... that 8 month limit has been gradually eroded by subsequent court rulings since the original Askov decision. These days it's not unusual to see 11b applications being denied even after 12 and 15 months or more delay on a simple HTA offence. It's not the absolute time-defined magic bullet it once was.