What traffic lawyers means by "win" is that you won't be convicted of what the officer charged you with. Which means, if you were caught doing 80 in a 50 and the charge is dropped 1km to 79, you've "won."

In the two minor speeding tickets I've received in my driving career, I've always been amazed how willing the prosecutor is to bump the charge down just for having you show up. The cop will sometimes even help seal the deal. It's almost like everyone is on your side as long as you plead guilty to something.

Dropping the charge from 160 to 149 isn't brain surgery. I'm pretty sure you'll get that handed to you on a platter... I think that if you're up for a challenge, you should aim for 29 over.

Damnit, they seem so forth coming on this kinda stuff... But what happens if your ticket is reduced on site? And you want to get it reduced further in court, is that possible? Or is the judge like fuk it because it was already reduced by the officer?

reduction by the officer doesn't have anything to do w/ reduction by the judge. go for it. you can prolly reduce it further.

remember, ALWAYS go for it. he who doesn't try, doesn't... i dunno. doesn't win :)

Well, there's a few things I wanted to say after reading through 17 pages...

First of all, Gino, You're a fool. How can you POSSIBLY go on the attack, get beat, and then claim ignorance by your age? I'm 17 and perfectly capable of following each ang EVERY argument. Next time shut your mouth unless you have something smart to say, or you'll look like an ass cap as someone else stated.

Gldwngr, I have a problem with the way you deal with accusations. What's with the hear no evil, speak no evil? Would you like videotaped evidence of the flagrant digregard of the HTA by members of the force? Or would you drop the act for a sec, and have some honour to admit that police do abuse their position?

I find it hard to believe that beyond a professional setting, furthermore, the TSR forums of all place, you feel the need to deny the obvious. We're not stupid. Who are you trying to fool?

Finally, about the TPA: it's legal recognition and/or status as a union is after the fact. What the TPA respresents is exatly the same as the Fraternal Order of Police in Philly. It represents the "behind-the-scenes" of the force, INCLUDING the notion each officer stick up for the next, which means turning a blind eye, which people who aren't on the force aren't blind of.

As long as the officer doesn't write the original speed in his notes or on the ticket, you can get it lowered further by the prosecutor. The prosecutor is the only one with the authority to reduce the speed. The judge is only allowed to reduce the fine.

If you know a police officer go for a ride along. I did this a week ago and really opened up my eyes to the "other side of the fence" that you speak about. This officer I rode with is also a very good friend, I have also been in his personal vehicle, he is a father of 2 and always drives 0-20km over the limit and appears to me to obey the laws, he has 10 years on the job

We drove like anyone else does, 0-20km over the speed limit on regular patrol.
Here is what else happened

- sitting at lights, dispatched to an alarm, he turned on all lights, siren, waited for traffic to stop and we proceeded down the road....well the alarm got cancelled 2 blocks later, turned off equipment and resumed normal patrol
(would any citizen know why he used the lights and went through, only to turn them off?? probably NOT)

- dispatched to B&E in progress on edge of town, NO LIGHTS OR SIRENS after last traffic light.....why? (so that the criminals at the B&E would not hear or see us coming) 2 males caught leaving scene in vehicle as they got caught on another cruiser radar 54km over the limit
(would any citizen know why no lights or siren were used if they got passed, not likely)

- assisted with a traffic collision by blocking a road, how many morons came up (we had cruiser sideways across both lanes of northbound traffic, with lights on) asking if the road is closed......DUH, no we are bored and just want to park here, one person went around the cruiser....and got charged for drive on closed road by an officer at the scene of the collision

- 6 vehicle stops during the shift, 4 for failing to signal, 1 for unnecessary noise and 1 for a headlight out

- 3 tickets given out
Unnecessary noise (muffler on, but could hear vehicle for 3 starts from stop signs that we could not even see and residential area at 2AM), fail to signal (driver attitude towards police) and an insurance card (multiple infractions) the rest were all warnings.
Seemed very reasonable to me.

I asked about how police drive, he said there are always some bad ones that make the rest of them look bad.
His best recommendation if someone was to feel a cruiser was driving inappropriately is to write down the plate or unit number and call in and speak to a sergeant. The officer will be called in and questioned and will have to justify the driving action. But DO NOT paint all police with the same brush..............this is the same as what we hear on here all the time of "profiling"

**********************
Bottom line is we on the road, do not know why a cruiser is doing what it is doing or where it is going (cruisers just stand out being typical BIG white cars with roof lights and attract attention just with the presence), citizens don't have the knowledge of the dispatch at the exact moment, or knowledge of experience as to know when lights, siren are needed for safety or not for the element of surprise on criminals................ BUT we still know the police DO have bad drivers as well

My $0.02 on some insight to the other side, I learned a lot that I never thought of during my ride along.

i have a quick question, how do you explain the tailgating police keep on doing to people, i see this 24/7, and i have experianced this many times, you can see the plate 2 car lengths away, why are you up my ass, next time this happens im going to slam the breaks, will the cop get a ticket for following too closley? no. police dont get tickets, and they abuse their position, furthermore im going to get a ticket for excessive tire noise.

Yeha about the police tailgating, this is a story that happened to someone in my school apparently.... Well he was stopped in a slight uphill and the cop hit his car from behind. ANd he was like wtf? But then the cop told him that. I have witnesses that say your car rolled back and u forogt the ebrake... so in the end, he had to pay for his own damage to his rear bumper caused by the cop.

So lets say if i got a ticket from the cop, who reduced it on site, and the ticket has 80km/h instead of 105km/h but it has an R on it... Would the judge still be allowed to reduce it furthermore? Even though my original speed isnt posted on the ticket, it did have an R saying it was already reduced. That is the part im not too clear on.

Some JPs will put it back up to the original speed. The cop will have that original speed in his notes.

i'd like to point out a little common sense here.

have you ever passed a cop on the hwy? most idiots slow down to the speed limit which causes a huge traffic jam at speed. if anyone is trying to change lanes or get somewhere it is impossible.
the idiot in front usually freezes, scared that they will get pulled over so they sit there matching every other lemmings speed. so obviously the cop is going to try to move people over to get by... hey he could be following someone and doesnt want to use his lights or siren so as not to alert the person he is following.

for the record i usually go through the whole mess ata safe speed and leave them behind and have never been pulled over.

so next time you see a cop in traffic... continue driving with the flow.. you wont get pulled over. if you are driving like an idiot you might.

Bottom line for everything posted about cops. DON'T BE AN IDIOT, AND YOU WON'T GET A TICKET!!

WEll I did come close to getting pulled over the other day in evening rush hour for going with the flow of traffic (about 120 in the centre lan). An unmarked car started to pace me during evening rush hour. So I changed into the left lane which he couldn't directly follow me in. Soon after he pulled behind the car directly behind me, paced him for about a minute and pulled him over.

Ok here consider this, there have been more accidents caused by Cops in past years than street racers. A large percent more. So how about this, instead of wasting money and time by pulling over anyone who you have profiled as a street racer,and put that time and money into better road training for ALL officers that ever get behind the wheel of a cop car. You say they do have training, well then why the hell are they causing more accidents than the apparent "Assassins of the road".

And yes I have seen both the good and bad of cops in their line of duty. The earliest memory I have was when my Dad was pulled over with me in the car, when the officer saw me he just let us go.(I was at most 5 at the time) Turn that around about 10 years later in the car with my Dad yet again pulled over only this time for no reason. We just pulled out of a hockey arena as I just finished practice and on this slippery as road this cop pulls him over for speeding, 29 over in a 50. There was about a foot of snow on the road and it was pretty much physically impossible for anything short of hummer to get up to the speed that quickly witht he traction.

1st paragraph.............. show us the STATS to back up your point.....via a reputable link or links (not just hearsay/rumours) Once you have the stats compare them "X number of crashes per "X" number of cruisers and also do the same "x" number of crashes per "X" number of alledged racer cars to get a pecentage, then repost to prove that valuable point for retraining

2nd paragraph.....no reason???? yet you tell us the vehicle is 29km over the limit???

Request disclosure. This will get you a copy of the officer's notes - if the original speed is in the notes, the prosecutor will not be willing to reduce it further.

Again, the judge (JP) cannot reduce the speed on a ticket. Only the prosecutor has this power.

As for raising the ticket back to original speed, the prosecutor can request this, but it is very rare, and the judge must agree to it. If you are meeting with the prosecutor for a first attendance appointment, this will not happen. These meetings do not include a judge. You are there to attempt to resolve the matter out of court.

No. The judge can do so on his or her own based on the evidence presented at trial. The judge isn't changing the underlying charge - the judge is merely rendering a factual decision not only on whether the offence of speeding occurred, but also on the actual degree of speeding.

To be found guilty of an offense, you must first be charged with it. It is not possible for you to be found guilty of the original speed without ammending the 'underlying' charge for that speed.

Once again, for all who are watching this thread, this is only applicable at trial.

And what is the exact wording of the charge on your speeding ticket? I'm talking about the HTA section number.

Of course it's possible. Whether you're speeding by 10km over or 50 over, the Underlying Charge is still SPEEDING, HTA 128. The Judge cannot, for instance, raise the charge it to Careless Driving (HTA 130, 6 points), or drop it to something small like Unsafe Lane Change (HTA 154, 2 points) at whim.

Hence, without affacting the underlyng charge, that of Speeding, the judge can amend (or agree to have ammended) the extent of the charge, i.e. the amout by which you were speeding.

That being said, if there is another offence under the HTA which fits your offence but carries lesser penalties, the prosecutor can make a recommendation to reduce the charge to that offence. (We call that a 'plea bargain'.) For example, if you're showing off your drifting skills around a bend and wipe out into incoming traffic :hah:, you're pretty sure to be charged with Careless Driving at the minimum. However, on trial day a sympathetic prosecutor can ask to amend the charge to, say, Drive Wrong Way (HTA 154, 3 points..?). The charge still fits your offence, albeit with a lesser fine and demerit point penalty.

Semantics. We're still talking about ammending the charge.
:)

The charge itself is not being amended or changed.

The charge is speeding. There are no separate charges in the HTA for speeding at x km in a y km zone versus doing a km in a d km zone. It's all just speeding.

The ticket may indicate a set fine, but that fine is the set fine applicable for out of court settlement if you choose not to dispute the charge of speeding.

Bring it into court though, and the game changes. All relevant evidence available, including the original speed noted in the officer's notes, can be brought forward and the JP will render a finding of fact based on that evidence even if it is more than the originally indicated out of court settlement.

Maybe you're not looking hard enough. Good luck in court.

I had a funny thing happen to me about a month ago. I was coming home on the 401 westbound and this guy in a Talon was right up my ass. Since there was a transport to my right, I am in the middle lane, and there wasn't enough time to merge right, my instinct told me to floor it and get some space. As soon as I got around the transport I was about to go to the right (slow) lane when I spotted something orange ahead. All this is happening at a time when I am doing about 145kmh. Sorry to anyone in blue, but sometimes you have to go fast to get out of the way. Anyways, this donkey in the Talon is right behind me. I focus on the orange ahead and realize it is OPP with a radar gun and he is aimed right at me!!! He quickly jumps in his car and next thing I know..... he busts the guy in the Talon! I am thinking to myself, thank God for minivans by this point. But it is a bit of a reminder which cars do get targeted unfortuantely. It is also the reason that whatever I drive will be as ho hum looking as possible. No sense giving someone a reason to pull me over.

I admit I could have handled that situation better, but at the time all I could think of is it is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

The officer was using either laser (target specific, which can pinpoint each and every vehicle) or radar with a fast mode (which when activated will be also able to obtain the "fastest" target reading, being the Talon).....therefore the reminder is sort of true...............getting the highest speeder, which in this case was the Talon and not your van

I will not accelerate drastically above the speed limit for anyone to pass me (except emergency vehicles with lights activated). I will not be forced down the road at a speed I'm not comfortable with either. The other driver will have to wait until I can make a safe lane change. If I'm ever hit from behind by such a moron, it will be my "cash cow" for life and a new vehicle too

Whatever the case may be, I was lucky that day.

Actually, he is somewhat right. I've personally had bad and good experience with cops. I once and only ONCE had a cop who showed up at the court but decided to not show up for my ticket. He had ticketed me on 10 over the limit though initially and I was comming back from work after a 14 yr Security shift. So, that ticket was dropped. Other than that, I have had cops abuse authority on me and literally verbally abusing on various occasions. I did mention to other cops before even realizing that he was there that even one ticket on my insurance will mess me up large.

I have a clean record but I am barely able to afford the insurance.

Thanks again for all the replies.

Here's the update:

I got the disclosure a few days ago and here's what it says:
"On sat. , the 6th of august 2005 at 12.48am, P/C Michel observed a Toyota motor vehicle travelling eastbound on QEW at a high rate of speed in lane 1 of 3. P/C Michel commenced a pace of this motor vehicle from lane 1 of 3. P/C Michel paced this motor vehicle at a speed pf 160kmh for a distance of 2.5km. The area is a posted 100kmh zone."

In the notes section the only note he made was
"My speedo is broken"

Both of these are completly untrue. First of all, i wasnt doing 160 like i said before. You cant even do 160 without changing lanes/passing someone for 2.5km. There wasnt anyone on my tail except for cars that wanted to pass me occasionaly. If there was a cop car on my tail for 2.5km, i'd notice it.

"My speedo is broken" was not what i said. I said "My speedo might not be working well". But i dont think it makes a difference.

I went to x-coppers and a lawyer that someone recommended and x-coppers want 600$ to represent me and the only guarantee they offer is that my licence wont get suspended. The lawyer guarantees to reduce it to atleast 49over for 350$. They both recommended to go to court by myself and see what plea bargain the prosecutor offers, if i dont like it, i should proceed with the trial and seek legal help.

Now my question is,
the first hearing is going to happen tomorrow (friday) and i wanted to know if i should agree to 49over if they offer it, or should i plead not guilty and take it to trial. Some people said that "pacing" is not as effective as radar in court and i will have better chances.

Thanks!

:knock_tee dude your lucky u didn't get suspended

First off.. I've been where your at... no details as i really don't want to read the replies afterwards.. all i can say is.. you have a clean record.. that's +1, you were polite +2, now when you go in tomorrow.. don't worry about anything.. just relax, try to be the last in the line up of people, so your called up last... this gives you a chance to hear other charges and so on.. trust me it's beneficial... you'll also figure out if the judge is cool or not..same with prosecuter.. now when your the last person.. it makes it easier to talk with the prosecuter without being rushed by others behind, and they won't feel as rushed.. now tell them exactly what happend that night.. in detail, including the car passing you..and yes i was speeding, but only 140ish, as it was late at night, again,,.. tell the prosecuter thats no excuse but your friend was ill and you were trying to get home and so on.. DON'T BAD MOUTH THE OFFICER!!! just be nice, if they even think your lying or trying to hard, they won't help you.. then ask the prosecuter if they can help you out in any way possible as to a lesser charge, seeing that it is first offence.. and your insurance will skyrocket, and you already pay for schooling and so on, you live on your own, can barely afford to do anything... sorta like a sob story.. now see if he can bring it down to 29 over, 3 points and a lesser fine.. sometimes it works, and as i stated , since it is your first offence... you might get lucky, if not.. go see pointts and let them do that for you.. but as i said.. be as polite as possible and play it like you barely have enough money to survive...
anyways.. thats my suggestion.. sounds gay :supergay: .. but has helped me and more then a handfull of friends in these tight situations... and after all that, if all goes well .. STAY THE F*CK OUT OF THE 6 POINT SPEEDING TICKET RANGE! :)

In what I've seen and heard, Pacing becomes questionable when it's over a very short distance or span of time, such as for "10 seconds", "500m", etc. The officer has you good at 2.5km doing 160km/h. At least, that's what he's going to testify to, and the judge will always take his word over yours.

That being said, if you plead guilty to a lesser offence, I'm pretty sure 49 over is within reach. FUCT suggests 29 over, but I think that's pushing the envellope somewhat.

Tomorrow is your chance to "test the waters" for yourself.. if you're not happy with what you're offerred or think you'd benefit from having an agent represent you, get an agent and go to trial.

yo guy just tell the judge u were drunk and didnt know how fast u were going. That always works.

Thanks for the replies, guys.
The officer WAS NOT pacing me for 2.5 km, ESPECIALLY at 160, because i wasnt going that fast. The problem is that in a case like this the officer can say pretty much anything he wants, and get away with it... Why didnt he say that he was pacing me at 200kmh all the way from Cayuga?

anything 50kms/hour+ over the speed limit is a criminal offence i beleive ... i dont kno how he let you drive away from this incident ... i dont know if its considered wrecklace or dangerous driving ... but good luck with insurance bro ... if convicted its 6 points ... suspended lisence ... and a huge fine

i dont understand why some ppl talk to the poor guy...he knows what he did wrong and hopefully he learned his lesson....so if ur not gonna give him advice just dont say anything at all

how is the truth talking ??????????????????? id really like to know

just so that you know, he doesnt have to pace you right on your ass. he could be a few lanes over, and 4 or 5 hundred metres behind you.
all he has to do is watch you pass a landmark, then count until he passes the same landmark.. then do that again and again to make sure he maintains roughly the same distance between you.
honestly, i guarantee you were doing roughly the speed that the officer says you were. do you honeslty think that he wasnts to possibly be reprimanded, even charged with an offence for lying on a speeding ticket? he really has nothing to gain by giving you a larger ticket than you deserve.
just remember, pacing can be done from quite a distance. he could have just been headlights way back and you wouldnt have noticed... then once he decided you hsould get a speeding ticket he sped up to nail you.

Just got back from the court.
The prosecutor offered to lower the charge to 145kmh (45 over) with 4 points and 275$ fine. I agreed... Then i told the judge how i was a poor student and he lowered the fine to 175$.
Some things surprised me:
Hearing was at 1:30... There were a bunch of people there waiting to go in.. Then at 1:10 the guard said that whoever wants to talk with the prosecution can go in and do so. Most people went in and lined up. Line was REALLY long.. maybe 30-35ppl, i was about 6th. When my turn came, it was about 1:25, then at 1:30 the judge came in and ordered everyone to sit down (the whole line) and the hearings began. 20+ppl from the line didnt even get a chance to talk with the prosecutor. Weird...

Another thing that susprised me was that all staff members in court were african-american. Not that i have something against that, but intresting nevertheless - the judge, the prosecutor, the clerk, even the guard was back. Is this a part of the affirmative action programm or just a coincedence?

One guy before me had a 168kmh in a 100kmh charge, and had a DIRTY record and got the same deal as me - 145kmh and 175$ fine.

Another guy was charged with 195 in a 100, no insurance, and driving with a suspended licence. He pleaded guilty to all charges and didnt even request a trial. 6000$ fine and 1 year licence suspension..... And i thought I was unlucky...

Anyway, thanks to all who've helped me in this thread!

You're welcome. That's what this site is for, however, slow down. if you don't go over 20 kms over the limit chances are you won't get a ticket.