Arpus Obrut,

If you're ok with a 49 over charge, I'd strongly suggest you take the following steps on your own prior to involving an agent (Pointts, X-Copper, etc):

1) Go to the courthouse and ask for a disclosure form at the provincial offences desk. Fill out the form and hand it back to the clerk. You'll usually get the officers notes and any other information they would use at trial in the mail.

2) Attend the hearing on the date specified on your summons (yellow notice).

The hearing process differs from courthouse to courthouse, but there will be an opportunity to speak with the prosecutor. Discussions with the prosecutor are usually in his/her office, with only you and the prosecutor present. In your case, all you're asking for is an 11km drop in the speed. You will agree to plead guilty to 149kph in a 100kph zone. If the prosecutor agrees, you'll go before the judge to formally plead guilty to the reduced charge.

If the proscutor refuses to reduce the speed, you'll go before the judge and enter a plea of not guilty. At that point, you can involve Pointts or X-Copper and let them take the matter to trial. With your clean record however, the prosecutor shouldn't have a problem reducing the speed to 49 over.


If you involve X-Copper or Pointts right away, they will take exactly the same steps, and will strongly advise you to plead guilty to the 49 over charge. By taking the initial steps on your own, you are saving yourself the $600-900 these agents charge to handle cases like yours.

Wow, thanks a lot!
A few questions though:
1) Is it possible to negotiate with the prosecutor to possibly drop it to 29 over?

2) If i get an agent or a lawyer for the trial, what are the chances of them completly getting me off? Would there be a lawyer that would "guarantee" this kind of win?

3) I heard that if i reschedule the trial date, the chances of the police officer not showing up greatly increase. Is this true?

4) Finally, if the police officer wont show up on the trial date, would i still have to pay the agent/lawyer?

Thanks

finally the bitching has stopped (not that I was a huge help before).

gldwngr - I appreciate your reply to my question. unfortunately everyone here has been the victim of profiling, and pretty much everyone here has dealt with one of the 'bad apples' to which you speak of. i believe that the police force unfortunately has considerably more bad apples than many other professions.

but, even though ive spent so much time trashing cops - i gotta give some cops credit. just yesterday when i went to get gas i was walking to go inside and pay and an officer waited a considerable amount of time (longer than any regular person would have waited) and held the door for me. thats pretty cool - and made me rethink some of the 'profiling' of the police force i have participated in on this post.

i think everyone rags on cops because they are supposed to be someone that we all look up to. fourty years ago everyone loved cops, and they were almost treated like celebrities. but now everyone seems to have been 'touched' by a police officer that was having a bad day, or was on an ego trip. and I have more than enough stories to back that up.

but we all must admit that it was pretty cool actually being able to go toe to toe with gldwngr and demand that he come up with statistics... and then be able to read his replies and find out how funds are allocated.

I also have a buddy, mark, who's part of the toronto ... etf... or whatever its called (maybe gldwngr can help me out on the name) its like the emergency task force or something. he was called in when that lady was taken hostage downtown last winter... and he is basically part of our version of swat. he sits around most of the day being paid to work out and push a few papers... which originally made me bitter at how our tax money is allocated. but one night i was over for dinner with my wife and mark wasn't home yet and we were talkin to his fiance nicole... who said EVERY time he is even 10 mins late she gets worried sick... because he is literally puttin his life on the line everytime he answers a call.

now the only reason why i said this is because we might all be pissed at those shitty cops that give us a hard time... but SO FEW of us have bothered to give repsec to the few decent ones.

just my 2 cents.

1) This is possible. But because of the size of the speed drop here, it's probably not very likely. You only need an 11km drop to bring it down to 49 over. You would need a 31km drop to bring it to 29 over. See what the prosecutor says. If he asks you what you'd like, be very polite and respectful and ask for 29 over. If he agrees, that would certainly be ideal.

2) This mostly depends on the information you get back from your disclosure request. If the officer documented everything correctly, and can show that the radar unit used was properly calibrated, your chances aren't good here. X-Copper offers a guarantee on some cases, but they reserve the right to determine which cases the guarantee is offered on. Typically they wouldn't offer it on a case like yours.

3) While this is possible, it is not likely. When rescheduling trial dates, the clerks would typically try to select a date when the officer is available.

4) If you hire an agent/lawyer to handle the case, and the officer does not show up at trial, the agent/lawyer must still attend the trial on your behalf. As a result, you must still pay the agent/lawyer.

****************************************
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FINALLY some real STATS................APPLES to APPLES
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HOMICIDE

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/homicide/statistics.php

HOMICIDE: 57 deaths per year average (98-03) from all types of homicide in Toronto.

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VEHICLE FATALITIES

http://www.toronto.ca/transportation..._fatal-jan.pdf

VEHICLE FATALS: 80 deaths per year average (1995-2004)

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With this all in mind now, it would shows that crime deaths are in fact lower than vehicle related deaths.

Another good information site

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/modul...rder=0&thold=0

if that doesn't work just go to http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/

This link shows that Toronto Police have started the installation of in-car cameras. It will only be in a select few cars at the start and to be merged into others over time.

No actualy i have no clue because i dont pay attention to them and have never been fined, other than a minor speeding ticket. Sorry fellaz, im not that wreckless in driving and know all the laws and fines.

i have gotten in a similar situation before. 170/100 zone, got a summons to court. i was looking at $800 and 6pts if convicted, possible licence suspension. paid $600 to laywer who (did absolutely nothing!) got the ticket down to 150/100 and 6 pts W/O suspension and $600 fine.

now i know that this was total bs! i couldn've gone to court just like him and if i tried a little, probably could've talked to the prosecutor and got it down to 149/100 (which is a minor offense).

advice to you:
1. DON'T get a laywer. they're a waste of money and don't know anything beyond basic common sense. you can do the same thing for free. you only get a laywer if you crashed and killed somebody or did 240/100 and looking at serious charges... which you are not atm.

2. first of all, read this: http://www.magma.ca/~fyst
This site is for ppl like.. well, all of us! :) It'll tell you exactly what to do. First of all, change the court date. This will minimize the chances of the cop coming (= automatic ticket dismissal). This will also give you a little more time (the later you have to deal w/ it the better, right?) If possible, try to move the second court date again. Think of excuses like sick, work, school, or my grandma in siberia needs an operation. Then come to the 3rd court date. Before that, way before, you have to request "disclosure". If they fail to provide it, it gives you leverage in court. Come to court well dressed, clean, shaven. Look your 100%. I've seen ppl come to court in wife beaters. Wife beater and a mullet = no leverage in court. Before the actual court, your best bet is to make a "plea bargain" w/ the prosecutor. Go talk to him/her BEFORE the court, explain your case. Try to agree on 140-149 in 100 (make sure it's <49 over, otherwise major ticket). At the end of the sentense, whatever it is, politely ask the judge for an extension to pay. You can ask up to 6 months to pay. Then pay $10/month, then at the end of the extension fax a form asking for 6 months more. It took me 2 yrs to pay that ticket like that.

Good luck.

If you choose to go this route, be sure to note the difference between a hearing and a trial.

Changing the date for your hearing will accomplish nothing. The officer is not required to attend the hearing. After the hearing, if you choose to plead not guilty and take the matter to trial, you will be given a trial date. The trial date is the one that vasilli is suggesting you change once it's assigned.

I think you can do this... Try to plea bargain w/ the prosecutor and if if fails, during the trial request to adjourn the court date because you want to seek legal help. But don't take my word for it, get a second opinion.

And one more thing, about those "we win or it's free" things. Nothing is free. There's always a small print. Don't waste your time and take my word for it. Or ask others. If they "guarantee" it, that means the case is so easy even a baby can win it. Anything more difficult is not guaranteed. And keep in mind that "win" is open to interpretation. Result? You get ed by both, x-coppers AND the court.

What traffic lawyers means by "win" is that you won't be convicted of what the officer charged you with. Which means, if you were caught doing 80 in a 50 and the charge is dropped 1km to 79, you've "won."

In the two minor speeding tickets I've received in my driving career, I've always been amazed how willing the prosecutor is to bump the charge down just for having you show up. The cop will sometimes even help seal the deal. It's almost like everyone is on your side as long as you plead guilty to something.

Dropping the charge from 160 to 149 isn't brain surgery. I'm pretty sure you'll get that handed to you on a platter... I think that if you're up for a challenge, you should aim for 29 over.

Damnit, they seem so forth coming on this kinda stuff... But what happens if your ticket is reduced on site? And you want to get it reduced further in court, is that possible? Or is the judge like fuk it because it was already reduced by the officer?

reduction by the officer doesn't have anything to do w/ reduction by the judge. go for it. you can prolly reduce it further.

remember, ALWAYS go for it. he who doesn't try, doesn't... i dunno. doesn't win :)

Well, there's a few things I wanted to say after reading through 17 pages...

First of all, Gino, You're a fool. How can you POSSIBLY go on the attack, get beat, and then claim ignorance by your age? I'm 17 and perfectly capable of following each ang EVERY argument. Next time shut your mouth unless you have something smart to say, or you'll look like an ass cap as someone else stated.

Gldwngr, I have a problem with the way you deal with accusations. What's with the hear no evil, speak no evil? Would you like videotaped evidence of the flagrant digregard of the HTA by members of the force? Or would you drop the act for a sec, and have some honour to admit that police do abuse their position?

I find it hard to believe that beyond a professional setting, furthermore, the TSR forums of all place, you feel the need to deny the obvious. We're not stupid. Who are you trying to fool?

Finally, about the TPA: it's legal recognition and/or status as a union is after the fact. What the TPA respresents is exatly the same as the Fraternal Order of Police in Philly. It represents the "behind-the-scenes" of the force, INCLUDING the notion each officer stick up for the next, which means turning a blind eye, which people who aren't on the force aren't blind of.

As long as the officer doesn't write the original speed in his notes or on the ticket, you can get it lowered further by the prosecutor. The prosecutor is the only one with the authority to reduce the speed. The judge is only allowed to reduce the fine.