windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
08-20-2003 | 06:39 AM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
> house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
> house.
There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
have one.
> FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
> window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
> interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
recommends the above? It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> With the
> windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
> coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
the 140 degree interior air.
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
> house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
> house.
There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
have one.
> FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
> window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
> interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
recommends the above? It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> With the
> windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
> coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
the 140 degree interior air.
08-20-2003 | 06:39 AM
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
> house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
> house.
There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
have one.
> FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
> window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
> interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
recommends the above? It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> With the
> windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
> coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
the 140 degree interior air.
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
> house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
> house.
There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
have one.
> FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
> window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
> interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
recommends the above? It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> With the
> windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
> coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
the 140 degree interior air.
08-20-2003 | 06:40 AM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <XZG0b.20321$Bo6.5857@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
> I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
> compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
> temperature?
It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
required. The A/C always runs the same.
riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
> I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
> compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
> temperature?
It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
required. The A/C always runs the same.
08-20-2003 | 06:40 AM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <XZG0b.20321$Bo6.5857@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
> I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
> compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
> temperature?
It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
required. The A/C always runs the same.
riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
> I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
> compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
> temperature?
It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
required. The A/C always runs the same.
08-20-2003 | 07:33 AM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
On 19 Aug 2003 14:12:56 -0700, audi4sale2k@yahoo.com (Mike S) wrote:
>"Larry" <zieglerl@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<ass0b.2415$Gi6.179310767@newssvr13.news.prod igy.com>...
>> It actually is the reverse........use the recirc air button once the air is
>> cold inside the cabin......make the ac work less as it is recirculating
>> cooler air. Don't use the recirc button until the air is cool.....and open
>> the window for a few moments to have hot air escape faster
>
>Whether you're recirculating air or not, your air conditioning system
>is still working just as hard. Your air conditioner is either on or
>off, there's no (or very little) difference in the amount of work
>required. When you have your internal temperature warm or cold,
>recirculating or not, you're AC system is working just as hard. The
>only way to reduce the amount of fuel consumption is to not use AC.
There's a thermoswitch in contact with the evaporator fins - just like a
home A/C window unit. When the temp at that switch, which depends on the
temp of the air entering and the temp of the fins themselves, gets below a
certain value, the compressor is disengaged. IOW the compressor cycles on
and off according to the temp of the evaporator fins and air just as it's
entering the evaporator. Climate control systems are a little more
complicated since they also take account of cabin air temp/humidity and
vary the speed of the ventilation fan and the blend of air.
>If you know how air conditioners work, the COMPRESSOR compresses a gas
>(R134 or equivalent) within the cooling system. It requires energy to
>compress the gas, which is supplied by your engine (via a
>belt/pulley). When this gas is allowed to expand, it gets very cold.
>This entire cycle is contained within it's own system so that gas
>isn't lost.
There's a clutch on the drive belt pulley which is engaged when necessary
to turn the compressor on and provide more cooling as needed.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
>"Larry" <zieglerl@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<ass0b.2415$Gi6.179310767@newssvr13.news.prod igy.com>...
>> It actually is the reverse........use the recirc air button once the air is
>> cold inside the cabin......make the ac work less as it is recirculating
>> cooler air. Don't use the recirc button until the air is cool.....and open
>> the window for a few moments to have hot air escape faster
>
>Whether you're recirculating air or not, your air conditioning system
>is still working just as hard. Your air conditioner is either on or
>off, there's no (or very little) difference in the amount of work
>required. When you have your internal temperature warm or cold,
>recirculating or not, you're AC system is working just as hard. The
>only way to reduce the amount of fuel consumption is to not use AC.
There's a thermoswitch in contact with the evaporator fins - just like a
home A/C window unit. When the temp at that switch, which depends on the
temp of the air entering and the temp of the fins themselves, gets below a
certain value, the compressor is disengaged. IOW the compressor cycles on
and off according to the temp of the evaporator fins and air just as it's
entering the evaporator. Climate control systems are a little more
complicated since they also take account of cabin air temp/humidity and
vary the speed of the ventilation fan and the blend of air.
>If you know how air conditioners work, the COMPRESSOR compresses a gas
>(R134 or equivalent) within the cooling system. It requires energy to
>compress the gas, which is supplied by your engine (via a
>belt/pulley). When this gas is allowed to expand, it gets very cold.
>This entire cycle is contained within it's own system so that gas
>isn't lost.
There's a clutch on the drive belt pulley which is engaged when necessary
to turn the compressor on and provide more cooling as needed.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
08-20-2003 | 07:33 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
On 19 Aug 2003 14:12:56 -0700, audi4sale2k@yahoo.com (Mike S) wrote:
>"Larry" <zieglerl@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<ass0b.2415$Gi6.179310767@newssvr13.news.prod igy.com>...
>> It actually is the reverse........use the recirc air button once the air is
>> cold inside the cabin......make the ac work less as it is recirculating
>> cooler air. Don't use the recirc button until the air is cool.....and open
>> the window for a few moments to have hot air escape faster
>
>Whether you're recirculating air or not, your air conditioning system
>is still working just as hard. Your air conditioner is either on or
>off, there's no (or very little) difference in the amount of work
>required. When you have your internal temperature warm or cold,
>recirculating or not, you're AC system is working just as hard. The
>only way to reduce the amount of fuel consumption is to not use AC.
There's a thermoswitch in contact with the evaporator fins - just like a
home A/C window unit. When the temp at that switch, which depends on the
temp of the air entering and the temp of the fins themselves, gets below a
certain value, the compressor is disengaged. IOW the compressor cycles on
and off according to the temp of the evaporator fins and air just as it's
entering the evaporator. Climate control systems are a little more
complicated since they also take account of cabin air temp/humidity and
vary the speed of the ventilation fan and the blend of air.
>If you know how air conditioners work, the COMPRESSOR compresses a gas
>(R134 or equivalent) within the cooling system. It requires energy to
>compress the gas, which is supplied by your engine (via a
>belt/pulley). When this gas is allowed to expand, it gets very cold.
>This entire cycle is contained within it's own system so that gas
>isn't lost.
There's a clutch on the drive belt pulley which is engaged when necessary
to turn the compressor on and provide more cooling as needed.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
>"Larry" <zieglerl@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<ass0b.2415$Gi6.179310767@newssvr13.news.prod igy.com>...
>> It actually is the reverse........use the recirc air button once the air is
>> cold inside the cabin......make the ac work less as it is recirculating
>> cooler air. Don't use the recirc button until the air is cool.....and open
>> the window for a few moments to have hot air escape faster
>
>Whether you're recirculating air or not, your air conditioning system
>is still working just as hard. Your air conditioner is either on or
>off, there's no (or very little) difference in the amount of work
>required. When you have your internal temperature warm or cold,
>recirculating or not, you're AC system is working just as hard. The
>only way to reduce the amount of fuel consumption is to not use AC.
There's a thermoswitch in contact with the evaporator fins - just like a
home A/C window unit. When the temp at that switch, which depends on the
temp of the air entering and the temp of the fins themselves, gets below a
certain value, the compressor is disengaged. IOW the compressor cycles on
and off according to the temp of the evaporator fins and air just as it's
entering the evaporator. Climate control systems are a little more
complicated since they also take account of cabin air temp/humidity and
vary the speed of the ventilation fan and the blend of air.
>If you know how air conditioners work, the COMPRESSOR compresses a gas
>(R134 or equivalent) within the cooling system. It requires energy to
>compress the gas, which is supplied by your engine (via a
>belt/pulley). When this gas is allowed to expand, it gets very cold.
>This entire cycle is contained within it's own system so that gas
>isn't lost.
There's a clutch on the drive belt pulley which is engaged when necessary
to turn the compressor on and provide more cooling as needed.
Rgds, George Macdonald
"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??
08-20-2003 | 08:34 AM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <XZG0b.20321$Bo6.5857@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
>
>>I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
>>compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
>>temperature?
>
> It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
> required. The A/C always runs the same.
Are we discussing straight A/C or climate control?
> In article <XZG0b.20321$Bo6.5857@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
>
>>I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
>>compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
>>temperature?
>
> It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
> required. The A/C always runs the same.
Are we discussing straight A/C or climate control?
08-20-2003 | 08:34 AM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <XZG0b.20321$Bo6.5857@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
>
>>I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
>>compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
>>temperature?
>
> It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
> required. The A/C always runs the same.
Are we discussing straight A/C or climate control?
> In article <XZG0b.20321$Bo6.5857@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>,
> riccardo@smile.org (Ric) wrote:
>
>>I've always wondered, does the warm/cold dial have any effect on the
>>compressor, or does it merely introduce heated air to regulate the
>>temperature?
>
> It controls a blend door, which introduces more or less heated air as
> required. The A/C always runs the same.
Are we discussing straight A/C or climate control?
08-20-2003 | 09:33 AM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
Elmo **** Pnasty wrote:
> In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
>>house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
>>house.
>
> There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
> Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> have one.
Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust. I have routinely used recirc
mode when going through tunnels, e.g., Holland & Lincoln, for years.
Avoids sucking in the exhaust & other pollutants in the tunnels. Back to
Fresh Air mode when I pop out the other side, of course.
Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
including US makes, have also had them. If you're claiming only Japanese
cars have a recirc mode, better document it.
>>FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
>>window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
>>interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
>
> Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
> recommends the above?
I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
"The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
mode."
Hmmm, I guess Honda screwed up big time here. You might want to offer
your services to Honda design so they can get it right the next time.
Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
which states:
"It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
There's no way that can be interpreted as recommending recirc mode most
of the time, as you stated in your original post.
Still, the Max A/C mode sets the A/C to recirc mode, so...
> It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
a major source of fresh air.
>>With the
>>windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
>>coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
>
> Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
> air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
> more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
> cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
> the 140 degree interior air.
I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air. My point is that
there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
the A/C when compared to recirc mode. It's not like having the windows open.
Anyway, re: the OP's question, pg. 117 describes how the A/C is switched
on when defrost mode is selected, with a note that the indicator above
the A/C button stays off.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer, I'm discussing the A/C system which is available on all 2003
Accord models except EX w/leather and EX w/V6. They have climate control
which operates differently.
> In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
>>house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
>>house.
>
> There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
> Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> have one.
Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust. I have routinely used recirc
mode when going through tunnels, e.g., Holland & Lincoln, for years.
Avoids sucking in the exhaust & other pollutants in the tunnels. Back to
Fresh Air mode when I pop out the other side, of course.
Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
including US makes, have also had them. If you're claiming only Japanese
cars have a recirc mode, better document it.
>>FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
>>window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
>>interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
>
> Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
> recommends the above?
I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
"The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
mode."
Hmmm, I guess Honda screwed up big time here. You might want to offer
your services to Honda design so they can get it right the next time.
Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
which states:
"It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
There's no way that can be interpreted as recommending recirc mode most
of the time, as you stated in your original post.
Still, the Max A/C mode sets the A/C to recirc mode, so...
> It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
a major source of fresh air.
>>With the
>>windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
>>coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
>
> Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
> air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
> more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
> cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
> the 140 degree interior air.
I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air. My point is that
there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
the A/C when compared to recirc mode. It's not like having the windows open.
Anyway, re: the OP's question, pg. 117 describes how the A/C is switched
on when defrost mode is selected, with a note that the indicator above
the A/C button stays off.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer, I'm discussing the A/C system which is available on all 2003
Accord models except EX w/leather and EX w/V6. They have climate control
which operates differently.
08-20-2003 | 09:33 AM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
Elmo **** Pnasty wrote:
> In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
>>house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
>>house.
>
> There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
> Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> have one.
Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust. I have routinely used recirc
mode when going through tunnels, e.g., Holland & Lincoln, for years.
Avoids sucking in the exhaust & other pollutants in the tunnels. Back to
Fresh Air mode when I pop out the other side, of course.
Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
including US makes, have also had them. If you're claiming only Japanese
cars have a recirc mode, better document it.
>>FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
>>window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
>>interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
>
> Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
> recommends the above?
I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
"The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
mode."
Hmmm, I guess Honda screwed up big time here. You might want to offer
your services to Honda design so they can get it right the next time.
Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
which states:
"It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
There's no way that can be interpreted as recommending recirc mode most
of the time, as you stated in your original post.
Still, the Max A/C mode sets the A/C to recirc mode, so...
> It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
a major source of fresh air.
>>With the
>>windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
>>coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
>
> Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
> air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
> more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
> cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
> the 140 degree interior air.
I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air. My point is that
there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
the A/C when compared to recirc mode. It's not like having the windows open.
Anyway, re: the OP's question, pg. 117 describes how the A/C is switched
on when defrost mode is selected, with a note that the indicator above
the A/C button stays off.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer, I'm discussing the A/C system which is available on all 2003
Accord models except EX w/leather and EX w/V6. They have climate control
which operates differently.
> In article <4NC0b.126851$_R5.48164664@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>The interior of the car is what - 2-3% of the interior volue of your
>>house? Plus you have many materials in the car not usually seen in a
>>house.
>
> There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
> Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> have one.
Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust. I have routinely used recirc
mode when going through tunnels, e.g., Holland & Lincoln, for years.
Avoids sucking in the exhaust & other pollutants in the tunnels. Back to
Fresh Air mode when I pop out the other side, of course.
Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
including US makes, have also had them. If you're claiming only Japanese
cars have a recirc mode, better document it.
>>FWIW, everything I've read over the years has recommended opening a
>>window and running on RECIRC when starting up a car with a heated
>>interior, then closing the window and switching to FRESH.
>
> Have you ever read your owner's manual? What *have* you read that
> recommends the above?
I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
"The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
mode."
Hmmm, I guess Honda screwed up big time here. You might want to offer
your services to Honda design so they can get it right the next time.
Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
which states:
"It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
There's no way that can be interpreted as recommending recirc mode most
of the time, as you stated in your original post.
Still, the Max A/C mode sets the A/C to recirc mode, so...
> It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
a major source of fresh air.
>>With the
>>windows (& moonroof, if present) closed, there isn't much fresh air
>>coming in, just equal to what the cabin vents permit to escape
>
> Right, which is why you open the windows to allow the extra hot trapped
> air to be blown out by outside 90 degree air being drawn in and much
> more efficiently cooled by the A/C. The net effect is that the interior
> cools down MUCH more quickly than if you asked the A/C to start cooling
> the 140 degree interior air.
I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air. My point is that
there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
the A/C when compared to recirc mode. It's not like having the windows open.
Anyway, re: the OP's question, pg. 117 describes how the A/C is switched
on when defrost mode is selected, with a note that the indicator above
the A/C button stays off.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer, I'm discussing the A/C system which is available on all 2003
Accord models except EX w/leather and EX w/V6. They have climate control
which operates differently.
08-20-2003 | 03:51 PM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <rMK0b.128907$_R5.49685693@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
>
> If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
> > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
> Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> including US makes, have also had them.
I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
law.
The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
> I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
>
> "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> mode."
yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
offer.
> Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> which states:
>
> "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
don't have.
> > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
>
> Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> a major source of fresh air.
Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
air, which means less noise.
> I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
> My point is that
> there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
>
> If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
> > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
> Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> including US makes, have also had them.
I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
law.
The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
> I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
>
> "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> mode."
yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
offer.
> Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> which states:
>
> "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
don't have.
> > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
>
> Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> a major source of fresh air.
Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
air, which means less noise.
> I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
> My point is that
> there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.
08-20-2003 | 03:51 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
In article <rMK0b.128907$_R5.49685693@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
>
> If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
> > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
> Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> including US makes, have also had them.
I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
law.
The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
> I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
>
> "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> mode."
yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
offer.
> Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> which states:
>
> "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
don't have.
> > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
>
> Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> a major source of fresh air.
Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
air, which means less noise.
> I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
> My point is that
> there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.
Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
> > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
>
> If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
> > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > have one.
>
> Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
> Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> including US makes, have also had them.
I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
law.
The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
> I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
>
> "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> mode."
yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
offer.
> Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> which states:
>
> "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
don't have.
> > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
>
> Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> a major source of fresh air.
Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
air, which means less noise.
> I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
> My point is that
> there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.
08-20-2003 | 05:47 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
That's my usual approach. At the start I'm much more interested in
getting the superheated air out of a hot car than worrying about
cooling. I have the automatic climate control on my 03 Accord and it
always wants to go straight to recirculate when the car is hot. I
always over-ride that.
Frankly, I find the fresh air works better most of the time. The
exception is trying to warm up a car when it's 20 below out. You do
have to switch to fresh air at some point to avoid the windows
fogging. When it's hot, I really don't notice a big improvement with
recirculate, and seldom use it.
BTW, I like the autoclimate control precisely because it allows you to
pick and choose which aspects are automatic. I can over-ride the fresh
air, or which vents are chosen, fan speed, AC etc and the rest stays
in the auto mode (ie, manages to the temp setting).
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:51:44 GMT, Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net>
wrote:
>Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>> <StonyRhoads@lycos.com> wrote in message news:3F4263FA.B88A4F91@lycos.com...
>>
>>>Actually you have it backward. One should run on fresh (outside)
>>>air to pull in outside air and push out the hot air within, when
>>>using Air conditioner. Once the vehicle begins to cool, go to
>>>recirc to re-cool the dehumidified air inside the vehicle. There
>>>is always an infusion of some outside air in any event. In the
>>>defrost mode the air source is from outside. If you vehicle has a
>>>manual recirc/fresh (outside) air controller, the recirc should
>>>only be used for AC, not heating, or your will build up
>>>humidity. Read your owners manual for complete instruction of
>>>the operating of the HVAC system, WBMA
>>
>> Good advice.
>> Mine says to open a window for sec to dump the hot air, and run the A/C in
>> recirc.
>> Even says to run in recirc for fast heating, but switch to fresh if things
>> begin to fog up.
>>
>> 1991 Honda Accord Owners Manual
>
>Mr. Shagnasty please take note.
getting the superheated air out of a hot car than worrying about
cooling. I have the automatic climate control on my 03 Accord and it
always wants to go straight to recirculate when the car is hot. I
always over-ride that.
Frankly, I find the fresh air works better most of the time. The
exception is trying to warm up a car when it's 20 below out. You do
have to switch to fresh air at some point to avoid the windows
fogging. When it's hot, I really don't notice a big improvement with
recirculate, and seldom use it.
BTW, I like the autoclimate control precisely because it allows you to
pick and choose which aspects are automatic. I can over-ride the fresh
air, or which vents are chosen, fan speed, AC etc and the rest stays
in the auto mode (ie, manages to the temp setting).
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:51:44 GMT, Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net>
wrote:
>Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>> <StonyRhoads@lycos.com> wrote in message news:3F4263FA.B88A4F91@lycos.com...
>>
>>>Actually you have it backward. One should run on fresh (outside)
>>>air to pull in outside air and push out the hot air within, when
>>>using Air conditioner. Once the vehicle begins to cool, go to
>>>recirc to re-cool the dehumidified air inside the vehicle. There
>>>is always an infusion of some outside air in any event. In the
>>>defrost mode the air source is from outside. If you vehicle has a
>>>manual recirc/fresh (outside) air controller, the recirc should
>>>only be used for AC, not heating, or your will build up
>>>humidity. Read your owners manual for complete instruction of
>>>the operating of the HVAC system, WBMA
>>
>> Good advice.
>> Mine says to open a window for sec to dump the hot air, and run the A/C in
>> recirc.
>> Even says to run in recirc for fast heating, but switch to fresh if things
>> begin to fog up.
>>
>> 1991 Honda Accord Owners Manual
>
>Mr. Shagnasty please take note.
08-20-2003 | 05:47 PM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
That's my usual approach. At the start I'm much more interested in
getting the superheated air out of a hot car than worrying about
cooling. I have the automatic climate control on my 03 Accord and it
always wants to go straight to recirculate when the car is hot. I
always over-ride that.
Frankly, I find the fresh air works better most of the time. The
exception is trying to warm up a car when it's 20 below out. You do
have to switch to fresh air at some point to avoid the windows
fogging. When it's hot, I really don't notice a big improvement with
recirculate, and seldom use it.
BTW, I like the autoclimate control precisely because it allows you to
pick and choose which aspects are automatic. I can over-ride the fresh
air, or which vents are chosen, fan speed, AC etc and the rest stays
in the auto mode (ie, manages to the temp setting).
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:51:44 GMT, Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net>
wrote:
>Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>> <StonyRhoads@lycos.com> wrote in message news:3F4263FA.B88A4F91@lycos.com...
>>
>>>Actually you have it backward. One should run on fresh (outside)
>>>air to pull in outside air and push out the hot air within, when
>>>using Air conditioner. Once the vehicle begins to cool, go to
>>>recirc to re-cool the dehumidified air inside the vehicle. There
>>>is always an infusion of some outside air in any event. In the
>>>defrost mode the air source is from outside. If you vehicle has a
>>>manual recirc/fresh (outside) air controller, the recirc should
>>>only be used for AC, not heating, or your will build up
>>>humidity. Read your owners manual for complete instruction of
>>>the operating of the HVAC system, WBMA
>>
>> Good advice.
>> Mine says to open a window for sec to dump the hot air, and run the A/C in
>> recirc.
>> Even says to run in recirc for fast heating, but switch to fresh if things
>> begin to fog up.
>>
>> 1991 Honda Accord Owners Manual
>
>Mr. Shagnasty please take note.
getting the superheated air out of a hot car than worrying about
cooling. I have the automatic climate control on my 03 Accord and it
always wants to go straight to recirculate when the car is hot. I
always over-ride that.
Frankly, I find the fresh air works better most of the time. The
exception is trying to warm up a car when it's 20 below out. You do
have to switch to fresh air at some point to avoid the windows
fogging. When it's hot, I really don't notice a big improvement with
recirculate, and seldom use it.
BTW, I like the autoclimate control precisely because it allows you to
pick and choose which aspects are automatic. I can over-ride the fresh
air, or which vents are chosen, fan speed, AC etc and the rest stays
in the auto mode (ie, manages to the temp setting).
On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:51:44 GMT, Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net>
wrote:
>Stephen Bigelow wrote:
>> <StonyRhoads@lycos.com> wrote in message news:3F4263FA.B88A4F91@lycos.com...
>>
>>>Actually you have it backward. One should run on fresh (outside)
>>>air to pull in outside air and push out the hot air within, when
>>>using Air conditioner. Once the vehicle begins to cool, go to
>>>recirc to re-cool the dehumidified air inside the vehicle. There
>>>is always an infusion of some outside air in any event. In the
>>>defrost mode the air source is from outside. If you vehicle has a
>>>manual recirc/fresh (outside) air controller, the recirc should
>>>only be used for AC, not heating, or your will build up
>>>humidity. Read your owners manual for complete instruction of
>>>the operating of the HVAC system, WBMA
>>
>> Good advice.
>> Mine says to open a window for sec to dump the hot air, and run the A/C in
>> recirc.
>> Even says to run in recirc for fast heating, but switch to fresh if things
>> begin to fog up.
>>
>> 1991 Honda Accord Owners Manual
>
>Mr. Shagnasty please take note.
08-20-2003 | 06:34 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: windshield defogger -- cool air in warm weather w/o A/C?
I haven't owned a Japanese vehicle since my 1997 Lexus but it and
my two previous Lexus' did not have a manual recirc, they ALL had
automatic recirc as part of the system, as do most American
cars. Only the low end American cars like the Escort have the
less expensive manual recirc. Even on recirc some air is drawn
from outside and exhausted, in any event
mike hunt
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> In article <rMK0b.128907$_R5.49685693@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
> >
> > If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
>
> Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
> suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
> have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
>
> > > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > > have one.
> >
> > Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> > I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> > windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> > someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> > Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
>
> That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
> very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
> recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
> want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
>
> > Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> > including US makes, have also had them.
>
> I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
> the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
> cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
> the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
> Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
> law.
>
> The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
> I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
> where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
> Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
> Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
>
> > I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> > describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
> >
> > "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> > mode."
>
> yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
> something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
> recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
> But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
> time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
> recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
> I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
> offer.
>
> > Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> > recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> > fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> > humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> > which states:
> >
> > "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> > conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> > dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
>
> Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
> button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
> dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
> If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
> won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
>
> Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
> INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
> don't have.
>
> > > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> >
> > Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> > a major source of fresh air.
>
> Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
> which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
> start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
> is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
> the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
>
> Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
> outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
> work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
> You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
> air, which means less noise.
>
> > I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> > recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
>
> Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
>
> And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
> it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
>
> > My point is that
> > there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> > all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> > the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
>
> Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
> Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.
my two previous Lexus' did not have a manual recirc, they ALL had
automatic recirc as part of the system, as do most American
cars. Only the low end American cars like the Escort have the
less expensive manual recirc. Even on recirc some air is drawn
from outside and exhausted, in any event
mike hunt
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> In article <rMK0b.128907$_R5.49685693@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net >,
> Gus <GusPod@XXX.optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > > There's *always* outside air being brought in, even in recirculate. And
> > > as for materials in the car, everything in a car is seen in a house.
> > > The chemical makeup is no different--even the exhaust.
> >
> > If you have auto exhaust gases in your house, why aren't you dead?
>
> Because the concentration isn't high enough. Nonetheless, city and
> suburb dwellers who have cars and trucks driving around their houses
> have exhaust pollution inside their houses.
>
> > > Speaking of, recirculate minimizes the exhaust you bring through the
> > > car. That's why Japanese cars have the separate recirc button--Japanese
> > > law requires it because of the exhaust and pollution issue. American
> > > cars typically don't have such a button, because nobody ever made them
> > > have one.
> >
> > Nonsense! The fresh air intakes on my 2003 Accord and every other car
> > I've driven in the past 25 years are located at the base of the
> > windshield. If you're sucking in exhaust or other pollutants, they're
> > someone else's, not yours, so you can zoom along the interstate in Fresh
> > Air mode and not draw in your own exhaust.
>
> That wasn't what I was talking about. In Japan, where conditions are
> very crowded, it's actually law that the cars be built with a separate
> recirculate button--for when you're following a stinky car and don't
> want to smell the gas. Check it out. Really. It's law over there.
>
> > Japanese law may require a recirc button, but other cars I've driven,
> > including US makes, have also had them.
>
> I've seen one or two, but usually they tie the recirculate directly to
> the A/C and call it "Max AC" or something similar. American designed
> cars usually don't have the recirc button as a standalone piece, giving
> the driver the ability simply to shut out the outside world for a bit.
> Japanese designed cars ALL have that, because in Japan it's required by
> law.
>
> The American mindset with regard to recirculate is goofy, in my opinion.
> I want independent choice at any time for where the air is coming from,
> where it's going to, and how much--if any--dehumidifying is happening.
> Japanese cars ALL give such independent control. Ford Taurus?
> Mainstream American car, but no such luck.
>
> > I refer you to pg. 113 in the 2003 Accord owner's manual, which
> > describes what happens when you push the Max A/C button:
> >
> > "The system automatically turns on the A/C and switches to Recirculation
> > mode."
>
> yeah, in 2003 Honda finally bows to the American car design of calling
> something "Max AC". But all it does is turn the air on and activate
> recirculate. Shoot, American cars have had max AC for years and years.
> But with Japanese cars, the user can hit that recirculate button any
> time he wants for any reason. With American cars, the only time air is
> recirculated is with the max AC function engaged. Sorry, too limiting.
> I want total control of the system, something the American cars don't
> offer.
>
> > Actually, Honda seems to contradict itself on pg. 116, where it
> > recommends initially cooling a very hot car with the windows open &
> > fresh air mode. It further recommends recirc when the outside air is
> > humid and fresh air when the outside air is dry. I refer you to pg. 115
> > which states:
> >
> > "It is better to leave the system in Fresh Air mode under almost all
> > conditions. ... Switch to Recirculation mode you are driving smoky or
> > dusty conditions, then switch back to Fresh Air when the condition clears."
>
> Ooooo, isn't that amazing. Honda says to hit that INDEPENDENT recirc
> button when it's humid outside. Why? Because the A/C is really a
> dehumidfier first, using the coolant to extract moisture from the air.
> If the outside air is horribly humid, your A/C has to work harder and
> won't be as effective. So, hit recirc.
>
> Or when there's pollution and you don't want to smell it--hit the
> INDEPENDENT recirc button. The one that American cars by and large
> don't have.
>
> > > It makes no sense, actually, to start out on
> > > recirculate. You want to cool the car down quickly, which means drawing
> > > in outside air--which is much cooler and therefore easier for the A/C to
> > > cool even further--and exhausting the very hot trapped air.
> >
> > Did you miss or are you ignoring the part about opening windows? They're
> > a major source of fresh air.
>
> Right. And you use the blower fan to force outside (cooler) air in,
> which forces the inside (much hotter) air out the open windows. So,
> start out in fresh air mode. (Why you'd hit recirculate when the goal
> is to blow the inside air out, I don't know. Recirculate simply blows
> the horribly hot inside air around inside the cabin...)
>
> Then, when you've gotten the inside of the car in equilibrium with the
> outside environment, hit that recirc button. Your A/C won't have to
> work so hard, because it will be working with less humid and cooler air.
> You'll also be able to turn the fan down, thanks to the cooler and drier
> air, which means less noise.
>
> > I was talking about *after* the initial cool down period, when you
> > recommend recirc and Honda recommends fresh air.
>
> Except when Honda doesn't recommend fresh air, as you quoted above.
>
> And in fact, since a little outside air is always getting in anyway,
> it's' no big deal simply to keep it in recirculate.
>
> > My point is that
> > there's not a whole lot of fresh air coming in in fresh air mode with
> > all windows closed, which means a relatively small incremental load on
> > the A/C when compared to recirc mode.
>
> Unless it's very humid, in which case you want to use recirculate--as
> Honda says--to lessen the load on the dehumidifying A/C system.