"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:Xym%k.10278$hx5.740@fe12.news.easynews.com...
> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
>
>> Anon wrote:
>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:i_X_k.12467$ED.7167@newsfe22.iad...
>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>> Thanks to everyone that provided information and links.
>>>>>
>>>>> It really sucks that I'll have to spend $800-$1000 on my 2001
>>>>> Honda
>>>>> V6. The car only has 24000 miles on it but is 7 years old. That
>>>>> almost makes me want to trade it in for a new car, one that
>>>>> doesn't
>>>>> use a belt that cost mega bucks to change.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> You have to see that belt change is time consuming and also it is
>>>> good
>>>> time to to the water pump while at it. Belt itself does not cost
>>>> much.
>>>> Some cars have timing chain.
>>>
>>> If Honda is going to use a part that must be changed as part of
>>> the
>>> routine eminence schedule, it should be designed so it is easy to
>>> change. I consider it poor design.
>>>
>>>
>> Hmmm,
>> Designing something involves many factors. It is not as simple as
>> you
>> might think. What is your definition of poor design? If you don't
>> like
>> to spend some $$ at 100K miles or so, is it poor design? I think
>> not.
>
> i think frod's desire to save a few cents by not having a
> compression
> washer on their spark plugs is one of the most fundamentally
> retarded
> design decisions of the 20th century. it's cost the consumer
> millions and
> millions of dollars in munged heads and excess labor. and the thing
> is,
> they knew it would be that way too! the pinto fiasco, the exploder
> fiasco, red rear turn signals... frod management deserves a good
> hard
> kicking in the *****.

I always hated the older GM designs for their small block v-8s that
put the distributor behind the air filter. Cursed their design team
for every burn I got on that old El Camino.....

>
>
>

 

Forrest wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:Xym%k.10278$hx5.740@fe12.news.easynews.com...
>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>
>>> Anon wrote:
>>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>> news:i_X_k.12467$ED.7167@newsfe22.iad...
>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that provided information and links.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It really sucks that I'll have to spend $800-$1000 on my 2001 Honda
>>>>>> V6. The car only has 24000 miles on it but is 7 years old. That
>>>>>> almost makes me want to trade it in for a new car, one that doesn't
>>>>>> use a belt that cost mega bucks to change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> You have to see that belt change is time consuming and also it is good
>>>>> time to to the water pump while at it. Belt itself does not cost much.
>>>>> Some cars have timing chain.
>>>> If Honda is going to use a part that must be changed as part of the
>>>> routine eminence schedule, it should be designed so it is easy to
>>>> change. I consider it poor design.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Hmmm,
>>> Designing something involves many factors. It is not as simple as you
>>> might think. What is your definition of poor design? If you don't like
>>> to spend some $$ at 100K miles or so, is it poor design? I think not.
>> i think frod's desire to save a few cents by not having a compression
>> washer on their spark plugs is one of the most fundamentally retarded
>> design decisions of the 20th century. it's cost the consumer millions and
>> millions of dollars in munged heads and excess labor. and the thing is,
>> they knew it would be that way too! the pinto fiasco, the exploder
>> fiasco, red rear turn signals... frod management deserves a good hard
>> kicking in the *****.
>
> Wait a minute, "red rear turn signals" .... that's how they are supposed to
> be. If God wanted them amber he would have given us better night vision. I
> can remember when anything other than red in the rear was illegal. OOOps
> ..showing my age again.
>
>
Hi,
Amber being in the middle of visible light spectrum, it is most visible
to human eyes.

 

Forrest wrote:
> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:5n00l.5769$R43.2829@newsfe08.iad...
>> Forrest wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Xym%k.10278$hx5.740@fe12.news.easynews.com...
>>>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:i_X_k.12467$ED.7167@newsfe22.iad...
>>>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that provided information and links.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It really sucks that I'll have to spend $800-$1000 on my 2001 Honda
>>>>>>>> V6. The car only has 24000 miles on it but is 7 years old. That
>>>>>>>> almost makes me want to trade it in for a new car, one that doesn't
>>>>>>>> use a belt that cost mega bucks to change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> You have to see that belt change is time consuming and also it is
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> time to to the water pump while at it. Belt itself does not cost
>>>>>>> much.
>>>>>>> Some cars have timing chain.
>>>>>> If Honda is going to use a part that must be changed as part of the
>>>>>> routine eminence schedule, it should be designed so it is easy to
>>>>>> change. I consider it poor design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm,
>>>>> Designing something involves many factors. It is not as simple as you
>>>>> might think. What is your definition of poor design? If you don't like
>>>>> to spend some $$ at 100K miles or so, is it poor design? I think not.
>>>> i think frod's desire to save a few cents by not having a compression
>>>> washer on their spark plugs is one of the most fundamentally retarded
>>>> design decisions of the 20th century. it's cost the consumer millions
>>>> and
>>>> millions of dollars in munged heads and excess labor. and the thing is,
>>>> they knew it would be that way too! the pinto fiasco, the exploder
>>>> fiasco, red rear turn signals... frod management deserves a good hard
>>>> kicking in the *****.
>>> Wait a minute, "red rear turn signals" .... that's how they are supposed
>>> to be. If God wanted them amber he would have given us better night
>>> vision. I can remember when anything other than red in the rear was
>>> illegal. OOOps ..showing my age again.
>> Hi,
>> Amber being in the middle of visible light spectrum, it is most visible to
>> human eyes.
>
> Actually, I think the point isn't weather or not you can see amber or red,
> but which one destroys you ability to see anything else after having it
> flash in your eyes while behind it. I really hate those vans with the huge
> ambers mounted about two thirds the way up the back. A few seconds behind
> one of those at night, is like staring at the sun and then walking into a
> darkened movie theatre and trying to find a seat.
>
>
Hi,
I see, pardon moi but sign of getting old. I wear glasses for night time
driving. I am on the wrong side of 60 too.

 

Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :

>
>"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:i2dtj49udshk20kkgkvguvkuctc50it2kb@4ax.com.. .
>> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>>
>>>
>>>"Anon" <anonnospam@yahoo.net> wrote in message
>>>news:OqOdnawJ9P6blabUnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@giganews. com...
>>>>I have 2 Honda Accords, a 2001 V6 and a 2002 4 cyl. If the timing
>>>>belt breaks, will it cause extensive engine damage?
>>>>
>>>> The manual on the V6 is unclear when to change the belt it says to
>>>> change it at 60,000 miles if you drive in very hot or cold
>>>> conditions. I do not have a manual for the 4 cyl, it was a used
>>>> car.
>>>> It has 94,000 on it now and runs perfectly.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>I believe the recommended change period is 105K miles or 7 years
>>>under
>>>normal conditions. My own interpretation of very hot has always been
>>>desert type conditions (Death Valley, Sahara), very cold would be
>>>similar to the northern Midwest areas and Canada/Alaska for the 60k
>>>change.
>>
>> Not really. This year we (Austin, TX) had consistent highs of 100
>> or
>> more. And it's supposed to hit the low 30s/ high 20s tonight (it's
>> 70
>> something at noon).
>
>Wide range here as well, but the extremes at both ends are limited in
>time.

We had days this summer where the LOW was in excess of 85. Today's
high was 53, the low tonight will be around 30. 80s by next Tuesday.
And (paraies to multiple deities being said) rain Wed-Fri.

> I would think extended exposure to the extremes would be a
>worst case scenario. I always use the change interval listed for
>"normal" conditions, and it hasn't failed me yet (knock on wood).

That knocking sound was the exhaust valve hitting the #2 piston. The
whoosing sound was your bank account being emptied. And the flushing
sound was all hope of getting that X-Box 360.

>
>>
>>>
>>>The key is not just the belt itself, but the internal cords/fibers
>>>that do not allow the belt to stretch, which are usually made from
>>>Kevlar/Twaron (both are aramid type high tensile fibers). I'm not
>>>sure if the base OEM Honda belts are rubber, HSN or carbon fiber
>>>type
>>>(I would suspect that they may be the one of the latter two, as at
>>>some point in the 90's they increased the recommended belt change
>>>interval by a fairly large amount).
>>>
>>>Here are a couple of articles you may want to read....especially the
>>>thermal properties of the Kevlar and interference engines.
>>>
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt
>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
>>>
>>>The potential damage from a broken belt is quite extensive, and you
>>>may or may not see any symptoms.
>>
>> I think the phrase "complete engine rebuild" sums it up nicely
>> (badly?)
>
>Yep, I guess there is no way to soften the blow....I probably should
>have said failure is usually catastophic....!
>
>>
>> Kevlar is wonderful in both tension and compression. But once a
>> construction like a belt (or body armor) starts to fail, there's a
>> cascade effect.
>
>Try standing next to a 3 1/2" plasticating extruder with a 60 HP drive
>running at 1750 RPM applying untold amounts of tourque through a huge
>gearbox when one of those belts fail and gets tangled in the drive
>sheave and rattles around for awhile......(usually a belt that is 10ft
>or more in length by about 6" wide)....it can take years off of ones
>life.

Yeah, like the rest of it!!!

For years, F500's used belts because chains were deemed "too
dangerous". Then 5 cars threw belts losing races in a weekend and one
driver was almost killed when a belt came off the car in front of him.
Now everybody uses chains. No chain failures in 4 years.

>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> - dillon I am not invalid
>>
>> When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
>> Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
>> will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
>> matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.
>>
>>
>
--
- dillon I am not invalid

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

 

Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :

>
>"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>news:Xym%k.10278$hx5.740@fe12.news.easynews.com.. .
>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>
>>> Anon wrote:
>>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>> news:i_X_k.12467$ED.7167@newsfe22.iad...
>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that provided information and links.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It really sucks that I'll have to spend $800-$1000 on my 2001
>>>>>> Honda
>>>>>> V6. The car only has 24000 miles on it but is 7 years old. That
>>>>>> almost makes me want to trade it in for a new car, one that
>>>>>> doesn't
>>>>>> use a belt that cost mega bucks to change.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> You have to see that belt change is time consuming and also it is
>>>>> good
>>>>> time to to the water pump while at it. Belt itself does not cost
>>>>> much.
>>>>> Some cars have timing chain.
>>>>
>>>> If Honda is going to use a part that must be changed as part of
>>>> the
>>>> routine eminence schedule, it should be designed so it is easy to
>>>> change. I consider it poor design.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Hmmm,
>>> Designing something involves many factors. It is not as simple as
>>> you
>>> might think. What is your definition of poor design? If you don't
>>> like
>>> to spend some $$ at 100K miles or so, is it poor design? I think
>>> not.
>>
>> i think frod's desire to save a few cents by not having a
>> compression
>> washer on their spark plugs is one of the most fundamentally
>> retarded
>> design decisions of the 20th century. it's cost the consumer
>> millions and
>> millions of dollars in munged heads and excess labor. and the thing
>> is,
>> they knew it would be that way too! the pinto fiasco, the exploder
>> fiasco, red rear turn signals... frod management deserves a good
>> hard
>> kicking in the *****.
>
>I always hated the older GM designs for their small block v-8s that
>put the distributor behind the air filter. Cursed their design team
>for every burn I got on that old El Camino.....

Chrysler 392 Hemis also had the distributer/magneto (depending on your
fuel choice) at the back. The 426 moved it to the front right. Which
seemed like a good idea until you put on blower on the sucker and had
to give the puppy a twist after the burnout. OTOH, standing behind
the zoomies didn't do much good, either.

>
>>
>>
>>
>
--
- dillon I am not invalid

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

 

"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
news:b983k4l09b5ebleqv7mck5h3dabhgabbs6@4ax.com...
> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>
>>
>>"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:i2dtj49udshk20kkgkvguvkuctc50it2kb@4ax.com. ..
>>> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Anon" <anonnospam@yahoo.net> wrote in message
>>>>news:OqOdnawJ9P6blabUnZ2dnUVZ_gqdnZ2d@giganews .com...
>>>>>I have 2 Honda Accords, a 2001 V6 and a 2002 4 cyl. If the timing
>>>>>belt breaks, will it cause extensive engine damage?
>>>>>
>>>>> The manual on the V6 is unclear when to change the belt it says
>>>>> to
>>>>> change it at 60,000 miles if you drive in very hot or cold
>>>>> conditions. I do not have a manual for the 4 cyl, it was a used
>>>>> car.
>>>>> It has 94,000 on it now and runs perfectly.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I believe the recommended change period is 105K miles or 7 years
>>>>under
>>>>normal conditions. My own interpretation of very hot has always
>>>>been
>>>>desert type conditions (Death Valley, Sahara), very cold would be
>>>>similar to the northern Midwest areas and Canada/Alaska for the
>>>>60k
>>>>change.
>>>
>>> Not really. This year we (Austin, TX) had consistent highs of 100
>>> or
>>> more. And it's supposed to hit the low 30s/ high 20s tonight
>>> (it's
>>> 70
>>> something at noon).
>>
>>Wide range here as well, but the extremes at both ends are limited
>>in
>>time.
>
> We had days this summer where the LOW was in excess of 85. Today's
> high was 53, the low tonight will be around 30. 80s by next Tuesday.
> And (paraies to multiple deities being said) rain Wed-Fri.
>
>> I would think extended exposure to the extremes would be a
>>worst case scenario. I always use the change interval listed for
>>"normal" conditions, and it hasn't failed me yet (knock on wood).
>
> That knocking sound was the exhaust valve hitting the #2 piston.
> The
> whoosing sound was your bank account being emptied. And the
> flushing
> sound was all hope of getting that X-Box 360.

Good thing I already got the PS3!

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>The key is not just the belt itself, but the internal cords/fibers
>>>>that do not allow the belt to stretch, which are usually made from
>>>>Kevlar/Twaron (both are aramid type high tensile fibers). I'm not
>>>>sure if the base OEM Honda belts are rubber, HSN or carbon fiber
>>>>type
>>>>(I would suspect that they may be the one of the latter two, as at
>>>>some point in the 90's they increased the recommended belt change
>>>>interval by a fairly large amount).
>>>>
>>>>Here are a couple of articles you may want to read....especially
>>>>the
>>>>thermal properties of the Kevlar and interference engines.
>>>>
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt
>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
>>>>
>>>>The potential damage from a broken belt is quite extensive, and
>>>>you
>>>>may or may not see any symptoms.
>>>
>>> I think the phrase "complete engine rebuild" sums it up nicely
>>> (badly?)
>>
>>Yep, I guess there is no way to soften the blow....I probably should
>>have said failure is usually catastophic....!
>>
>>>
>>> Kevlar is wonderful in both tension and compression. But once a
>>> construction like a belt (or body armor) starts to fail, there's a
>>> cascade effect.
>>
>>Try standing next to a 3 1/2" plasticating extruder with a 60 HP
>>drive
>>running at 1750 RPM applying untold amounts of tourque through a
>>huge
>>gearbox when one of those belts fail and gets tangled in the drive
>>sheave and rattles around for awhile......(usually a belt that is
>>10ft
>>or more in length by about 6" wide)....it can take years off of ones
>>life.
>
> Yeah, like the rest of it!!!
>
> For years, F500's used belts because chains were deemed "too
> dangerous". Then 5 cars threw belts losing races in a weekend and
> one
> driver was almost killed when a belt came off the car in front of
> him.
> Now everybody uses chains. No chain failures in 4 years.

Yep.....one would have to wonder what would really be better....pros
and cons to both, I guess.....

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>> - dillon I am not invalid
>>>
>>> When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
>>> Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
>>> will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
>>> matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.
>>>
>>>
>>
> --
> - dillon I am not invalid
>
> When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
> Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
> will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
> matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.
>
>

 

Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :

>
>"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>news:b983k4l09b5ebleqv7mck5h3dabhgabbs6@4ax.com.. .
>> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>>

<snip>

>Good thing I already got the PS3!

Remember when the PS2 came out, and Sony was running ads for the PS10?

>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>The key is not just the belt itself, but the internal cords/fibers
>>>>>that do not allow the belt to stretch, which are usually made from
>>>>>Kevlar/Twaron (both are aramid type high tensile fibers). I'm not
>>>>>sure if the base OEM Honda belts are rubber, HSN or carbon fiber
>>>>>type
>>>>>(I would suspect that they may be the one of the latter two, as at
>>>>>some point in the 90's they increased the recommended belt change
>>>>>interval by a fairly large amount).
>>>>>
>>>>>Here are a couple of articles you may want to read....especially
>>>>>the
>>>>>thermal properties of the Kevlar and interference engines.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
>>>>>
>>>>>The potential damage from a broken belt is quite extensive, and
>>>>>you
>>>>>may or may not see any symptoms.
>>>>
>>>> I think the phrase "complete engine rebuild" sums it up nicely
>>>> (badly?)
>>>
>>>Yep, I guess there is no way to soften the blow....I probably should
>>>have said failure is usually catastophic....!
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Kevlar is wonderful in both tension and compression. But once a
>>>> construction like a belt (or body armor) starts to fail, there's a
>>>> cascade effect.
>>>
>>>Try standing next to a 3 1/2" plasticating extruder with a 60 HP
>>>drive
>>>running at 1750 RPM applying untold amounts of tourque through a
>>>huge
>>>gearbox when one of those belts fail and gets tangled in the drive
>>>sheave and rattles around for awhile......(usually a belt that is
>>>10ft
>>>or more in length by about 6" wide)....it can take years off of ones
>>>life.
>>
>> Yeah, like the rest of it!!!
>>
>> For years, F500's used belts because chains were deemed "too
>> dangerous". Then 5 cars threw belts losing races in a weekend and
>> one
>> driver was almost killed when a belt came off the car in front of
>> him.
>> Now everybody uses chains. No chain failures in 4 years.
>
>Yep.....one would have to wonder what would really be better....pros
>and cons to both, I guess.....

Pros of chains: They last considerably longer. They don't suffer as
much stretch. They're less likely to jump.

Cons: Wow, talk about price! When they fail, you wonder if that 16
guage chain guard is going to be enough. Wow, talk about price! And
did I say they're expensive.

But most people are now saying the life expectance drives the price
down. And most fail "slowly", as in you can see them going south.
Which loses less races.
--
- dillon I am not invalid

When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true.
Unless it's really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which
will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much hosed no
matter what you wish for. Unless it's death by meteor.

 

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:05:22 -0800, Forrest wrote:

> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:5n00l.5769$R43.2829@newsfe08.iad...
>> Forrest wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>> news:Xym%k.10278$hx5.740@fe12.news.easynews.com...
>>>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:i_X_k.12467$ED.7167@newsfe22.iad...
>>>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that provided information and links.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It really sucks that I'll have to spend $800-$1000 on my 2001
>>>>>>>> Honda V6. The car only has 24000 miles on it but is 7 years old.
>>>>>>>> That almost makes me want to trade it in for a new car, one that
>>>>>>>> doesn't use a belt that cost mega bucks to change.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> You have to see that belt change is time consuming and also it is
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> time to to the water pump while at it. Belt itself does not cost
>>>>>>> much.
>>>>>>> Some cars have timing chain.
>>>>>> If Honda is going to use a part that must be changed as part of the
>>>>>> routine eminence schedule, it should be designed so it is easy to
>>>>>> change. I consider it poor design.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm,
>>>>> Designing something involves many factors. It is not as simple as
>>>>> you might think. What is your definition of poor design? If you
>>>>> don't like to spend some $$ at 100K miles or so, is it poor design?
>>>>> I think not.
>>>> i think frod's desire to save a few cents by not having a compression
>>>> washer on their spark plugs is one of the most fundamentally retarded
>>>> design decisions of the 20th century. it's cost the consumer
>>>> millions and
>>>> millions of dollars in munged heads and excess labor. and the thing
>>>> is, they knew it would be that way too! the pinto fiasco, the
>>>> exploder fiasco, red rear turn signals... frod management deserves a
>>>> good hard kicking in the *****.
>>>
>>> Wait a minute, "red rear turn signals" .... that's how they are
>>> supposed to be. If God wanted them amber he would have given us better
>>> night vision. I can remember when anything other than red in the rear
>>> was illegal. OOOps ..showing my age again.
>> Hi,
>> Amber being in the middle of visible light spectrum, it is most visible
>> to human eyes.
>
> Actually, I think the point isn't weather or not you can see amber or
> red, but which one destroys you ability to see anything else after
> having it flash in your eyes while behind it.

er, no, the point is whether one flash of an amber IMMEDIATELY tells you
"turn signal" whereas it takes 2 or even 3 flashes of a red to give you
reliable differentiation between turn and brake. red may be ok on a 5mph
turnip truck on some farm track, but it's not good in 70mph nose-to-tail
freeway traffic. if the nhtsa had any *****, they'd publish stats on
freeway accidents involving red vs. amber signals - then we'd see why the
rest of the world /doesn't/ follow our example on this one.





> I really hate those vans
> with the huge ambers mounted about two thirds the way up the back. A few
> seconds behind one of those at night, is like staring at the sun and
> then walking into a darkened movie theatre and trying to find a seat.

 

On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:28:25 -0600, Dillon Pyron wrote:

> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>
>
>>"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>>news:b983k4l09b5ebleqv7mck5h3dabhgabbs6@4ax.com. ..
>>> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>>>
>>>
> <snip>
>
>>Good thing I already got the PS3!
>
> Remember when the PS2 came out, and Sony was running ads for the PS10?
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The key is not just the belt itself, but the internal cords/fibers
>>>>>>that do not allow the belt to stretch, which are usually made from
>>>>>>Kevlar/Twaron (both are aramid type high tensile fibers). I'm not
>>>>>>sure if the base OEM Honda belts are rubber, HSN or carbon fiber
>>>>>>type
>>>>>>(I would suspect that they may be the one of the latter two, as at
>>>>>>some point in the 90's they increased the recommended belt change
>>>>>>interval by a fairly large amount).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here are a couple of articles you may want to read....especially the
>>>>>>thermal properties of the Kevlar and interference engines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt
>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The potential damage from a broken belt is quite extensive, and you
>>>>>>may or may not see any symptoms.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the phrase "complete engine rebuild" sums it up nicely
>>>>> (badly?)
>>>>
>>>>Yep, I guess there is no way to soften the blow....I probably should
>>>>have said failure is usually catastophic....!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Kevlar is wonderful in both tension and compression. But once a
>>>>> construction like a belt (or body armor) starts to fail, there's a
>>>>> cascade effect.
>>>>
>>>>Try standing next to a 3 1/2" plasticating extruder with a 60 HP drive
>>>>running at 1750 RPM applying untold amounts of tourque through a huge
>>>>gearbox when one of those belts fail and gets tangled in the drive
>>>>sheave and rattles around for awhile......(usually a belt that is 10ft
>>>>or more in length by about 6" wide)....it can take years off of ones
>>>>life.
>>>
>>> Yeah, like the rest of it!!!
>>>
>>> For years, F500's used belts because chains were deemed "too
>>> dangerous". Then 5 cars threw belts losing races in a weekend and one
>>> driver was almost killed when a belt came off the car in front of him.
>>> Now everybody uses chains. No chain failures in 4 years.
>>
>>Yep.....one would have to wonder what would really be better....pros and
>>cons to both, I guess.....
>
> Pros of chains: They last considerably longer.

that's a stretch. - because no change interval is specified doesn't mean
its not wearing out.


> They don't suffer as
> much stretch.

absolutely disagree. i've seen chains stretched so bad, the cam is 10
degrees out of sync with the crank. belts may break at extended mileage,
but they don't stretch.



> They're less likely to jump.

again, disagree. if a belt jumps, it's some kind of harmonic or other
design issue in the belt run, not the fault of the belt itself.



>
> Cons: Wow, talk about price! When they fail, you wonder if that 16
> guage chain guard is going to be enough. Wow, talk about price! And
> did I say they're expensive.
>
> But most people are now saying the life expectance drives the price
> down. And most fail "slowly", as in you can see them going south. Which
> loses less races.
> --
> - dillon I am not invalid
>
> When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true. Unless it's
> really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which will destroy all life.
> Then you're pretty much hosed no matter what you wish for. Unless it's
> death by meteor.

 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:fs%0l.85620$f82.51568@fe08.news.easynews.com. ..
> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:05:22 -0800, Forrest wrote:
>
>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>> news:5n00l.5769$R43.2829@newsfe08.iad...
>>> Forrest wrote:
>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xym%k.10278$hx5.740@fe12.news.easynews.com...
>>>>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:i_X_k.12467$ED.7167@newsfe22.iad...
>>>>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that provided information and links.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It really sucks that I'll have to spend $800-$1000 on my 2001
>>>>>>>>> Honda V6. The car only has 24000 miles on it but is 7 years old.
>>>>>>>>> That almost makes me want to trade it in for a new car, one that
>>>>>>>>> doesn't use a belt that cost mega bucks to change.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>> You have to see that belt change is time consuming and also it is
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> time to to the water pump while at it. Belt itself does not cost
>>>>>>>> much.
>>>>>>>> Some cars have timing chain.
>>>>>>> If Honda is going to use a part that must be changed as part of the
>>>>>>> routine eminence schedule, it should be designed so it is easy to
>>>>>>> change. I consider it poor design.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm,
>>>>>> Designing something involves many factors. It is not as simple as
>>>>>> you might think. What is your definition of poor design? If you
>>>>>> don't like to spend some $$ at 100K miles or so, is it poor design?
>>>>>> I think not.
>>>>> i think frod's desire to save a few cents by not having a compression
>>>>> washer on their spark plugs is one of the most fundamentally retarded
>>>>> design decisions of the 20th century. it's cost the consumer
>>>>> millions and
>>>>> millions of dollars in munged heads and excess labor. and the thing
>>>>> is, they knew it would be that way too! the pinto fiasco, the
>>>>> exploder fiasco, red rear turn signals... frod management deserves a
>>>>> good hard kicking in the *****.
>>>>
>>>> Wait a minute, "red rear turn signals" .... that's how they are
>>>> supposed to be. If God wanted them amber he would have given us better
>>>> night vision. I can remember when anything other than red in the rear
>>>> was illegal. OOOps ..showing my age again.
>>> Hi,
>>> Amber being in the middle of visible light spectrum, it is most visible
>>> to human eyes.
>>
>> Actually, I think the point isn't weather or not you can see amber or
>> red, but which one destroys you ability to see anything else after
>> having it flash in your eyes while behind it.
>
> er, no, the point is whether one flash of an amber IMMEDIATELY tells you
> "turn signal" whereas it takes 2 or even 3 flashes of a red to give you
> reliable differentiation between turn and brake. red may be ok on a 5mph
> turnip truck on some farm track, but it's not good in 70mph nose-to-tail
> freeway traffic. if the nhtsa had any *****, they'd publish stats on
> freeway accidents involving red vs. amber signals - then we'd see why the
> rest of the world /doesn't/ follow our example on this one.

Well, I can see that you have very strong views on this subject .... I'm
sure that anything that I say won't change the way you feel. No sence in
butting heads over it.

 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:gt%0l.31267$3g5.16665@fe07.news.easynews.com. ..
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:28:25 -0600, Dillon Pyron wrote:
>
>> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>>
>>
>>>"Dillon Pyron" <invaliddmpyron@austin.rr.com> wrote in message
>>>news:b983k4l09b5ebleqv7mck5h3dabhgabbs6@4ax.com ...
>>>> Thus spake "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> :
>>>>
>>>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>Good thing I already got the PS3!
>>
>> Remember when the PS2 came out, and Sony was running ads for the
>> PS10?
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The key is not just the belt itself, but the internal
>>>>>>>cords/fibers
>>>>>>>that do not allow the belt to stretch, which are usually made
>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>Kevlar/Twaron (both are aramid type high tensile fibers). I'm
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>sure if the base OEM Honda belts are rubber, HSN or carbon
>>>>>>>fiber
>>>>>>>type
>>>>>>>(I would suspect that they may be the one of the latter two, as
>>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>some point in the 90's they increased the recommended belt
>>>>>>>change
>>>>>>>interval by a fairly large amount).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Here are a couple of articles you may want to
>>>>>>>read....especially the
>>>>>>>thermal properties of the Kevlar and interference engines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt
>>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevlar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The potential damage from a broken belt is quite extensive, and
>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>may or may not see any symptoms.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the phrase "complete engine rebuild" sums it up nicely
>>>>>> (badly?)
>>>>>
>>>>>Yep, I guess there is no way to soften the blow....I probably
>>>>>should
>>>>>have said failure is usually catastophic....!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevlar is wonderful in both tension and compression. But once
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> construction like a belt (or body armor) starts to fail,
>>>>>> there's a
>>>>>> cascade effect.
>>>>>
>>>>>Try standing next to a 3 1/2" plasticating extruder with a 60 HP
>>>>>drive
>>>>>running at 1750 RPM applying untold amounts of tourque through a
>>>>>huge
>>>>>gearbox when one of those belts fail and gets tangled in the
>>>>>drive
>>>>>sheave and rattles around for awhile......(usually a belt that is
>>>>>10ft
>>>>>or more in length by about 6" wide)....it can take years off of
>>>>>ones
>>>>>life.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, like the rest of it!!!
>>>>
>>>> For years, F500's used belts because chains were deemed "too
>>>> dangerous". Then 5 cars threw belts losing races in a weekend
>>>> and one
>>>> driver was almost killed when a belt came off the car in front of
>>>> him.
>>>> Now everybody uses chains. No chain failures in 4 years.
>>>
>>>Yep.....one would have to wonder what would really be
>>>better....pros and
>>>cons to both, I guess.....
>>
>> Pros of chains: They last considerably longer.
>
> that's a stretch. - because no change interval is specified doesn't
> mean
> its not wearing out.
>
>
>> They don't suffer as
>> much stretch.
>
> absolutely disagree. i've seen chains stretched so bad, the cam is
> 10
> degrees out of sync with the crank. belts may break at extended
> mileage,
> but they don't stretch.
>
>
>
>> They're less likely to jump.
>
> again, disagree. if a belt jumps, it's some kind of harmonic or
> other
> design issue in the belt run, not the fault of the belt itself.
>

Anyone that I have known that has owned a motorcycle with a chain
drive was more then happy to go to either a shaft or belt drive
system, most for the reasons you point out.


>
>
> >
>> Cons: Wow, talk about price! When they fail, you wonder if that
>> 16
>> guage chain guard is going to be enough. Wow, talk about price!
>> And
>> did I say they're expensive.
>>
>> But most people are now saying the life expectance drives the price
>> down. And most fail "slowly", as in you can see them going south.
>> Which
>> loses less races.
>> --
>> - dillon I am not invalid
>>
>> When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams come true. Unless
>> it's
>> really a meteorite hurtling to the Earth which will destroy all
>> life.
>> Then you're pretty much hosed no matter what you wish for. Unless
>> it's
>> death by meteor.
>

 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
news:gt%0l.31267$3g5.16665@fe07.news.easynews.com. ..
> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:28:25 -0600, Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>
>> Pros of chains: They last considerably longer.
>
> that's a stretch. - because no change interval is specified doesn't mean
> its not wearing out.
>

My only experience with modern timing chains has been in the Toyota Prius.
The chains appear to be everything the supporters claim in those engines.
Although at least one 2001 Prius has exceeded 300K miles and several that I
know of have gone past 200K miles, there have been no reports anywhere of
having to replace the chain. Considering the valve timing is electronically
controlled that is quite an endorsement. I'm sure it is wearing out, but it
seems the rest of the car may be wearing out more quickly.

I would certainly agree that many timing chains even as recently as the '80s
exhibited a lot of wear and had short life expectancies, but that doesn't
seem to be the rule today.

Mike

 

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 06:53:37 -0700, Michael Pardee wrote:

> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:gt%0l.31267$3g5.16665@fe07.news.easynews.com. ..
>> On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 11:28:25 -0600, Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>>
>>> Pros of chains: They last considerably longer.
>>
>> that's a stretch. - because no change interval is specified doesn't
>> mean its not wearing out.
>>
>>
> My only experience with modern timing chains has been in the Toyota
> Prius. The chains appear to be everything the supporters claim in those
> engines. Although at least one 2001 Prius has exceeded 300K miles and
> several that I know of have gone past 200K miles, there have been no
> reports anywhere of having to replace the chain. Considering the valve
> timing is electronically controlled that is quite an endorsement. I'm
> sure it is wearing out, but it seems the rest of the car may be wearing
> out more quickly.
>
> I would certainly agree that many timing chains even as recently as the
> '80s exhibited a lot of wear and had short life expectancies, but that
> doesn't seem to be the rule today.
>
> Mike


maybe, but if so, i sure don't understand what would be different - i'm
not aware of any significant advances in chain design that would allow
this.

 

On Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:37:36 -0800, Forrest wrote:

> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
> news:fs%0l.85620$f82.51568@fe08.news.easynews.com. ..
>> On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:05:22 -0800, Forrest wrote:
>>
>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>> news:5n00l.5769$R43.2829@newsfe08.iad...
>>>> Forrest wrote:
>>>>> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:Xym%k.10278$hx5.740@fe12.news.easynews.com...
>>>>>> On Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:15:30 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Tony Hwang" <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:i_X_k.12467$ED.7167@newsfe22.iad...
>>>>>>>>> Anon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks to everyone that provided information and links.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It really sucks that I'll have to spend $800-$1000 on my 2001
>>>>>>>>>> Honda V6. The car only has 24000 miles on it but is 7 years
>>>>>>>>>> old. That almost makes me want to trade it in for a new car,
>>>>>>>>>> one that doesn't use a belt that cost mega bucks to change.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>> You have to see that belt change is time consuming and also it
>>>>>>>>> is good
>>>>>>>>> time to to the water pump while at it. Belt itself does not cost
>>>>>>>>> much.
>>>>>>>>> Some cars have timing chain.
>>>>>>>> If Honda is going to use a part that must be changed as part of
>>>>>>>> the routine eminence schedule, it should be designed so it is
>>>>>>>> easy to change. I consider it poor design.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmmm,
>>>>>>> Designing something involves many factors. It is not as simple as
>>>>>>> you might think. What is your definition of poor design? If you
>>>>>>> don't like to spend some $$ at 100K miles or so, is it poor
>>>>>>> design? I think not.
>>>>>> i think frod's desire to save a few cents by not having a
>>>>>> compression washer on their spark plugs is one of the most
>>>>>> fundamentally retarded design decisions of the 20th century. it's
>>>>>> cost the consumer millions and
>>>>>> millions of dollars in munged heads and excess labor. and the
>>>>>> thing is, they knew it would be that way too! the pinto fiasco,
>>>>>> the exploder fiasco, red rear turn signals... frod management
>>>>>> deserves a good hard kicking in the *****.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wait a minute, "red rear turn signals" .... that's how they are
>>>>> supposed to be. If God wanted them amber he would have given us
>>>>> better night vision. I can remember when anything other than red in
>>>>> the rear was illegal. OOOps ..showing my age again.
>>>> Hi,
>>>> Amber being in the middle of visible light spectrum, it is most
>>>> visible to human eyes.
>>>
>>> Actually, I think the point isn't weather or not you can see amber or
>>> red, but which one destroys you ability to see anything else after
>>> having it flash in your eyes while behind it.
>>
>> er, no, the point is whether one flash of an amber IMMEDIATELY tells
>> you "turn signal" whereas it takes 2 or even 3 flashes of a red to give
>> you reliable differentiation between turn and brake. red may be ok on
>> a 5mph turnip truck on some farm track, but it's not good in 70mph
>> nose-to-tail freeway traffic. if the nhtsa had any *****, they'd
>> publish stats on freeway accidents involving red vs. amber signals -
>> then we'd see why the rest of the world /doesn't/ follow our example on
>> this one.
>
> Well, I can see that you have very strong views on this subject .... I'm
> sure that anything that I say won't change the way you feel. No sence
> in butting heads over it.


it's not a feeling thing, it's a logic and statistical thing. red rear
turn signals make no sense.