reccomended maintence schedule
01-13-2007 | 12:01 AM
#61
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers.
dealers, no. experienced professionals, yes.
> I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device.
suspicious???? suspicions based on what? have you researched this
subject and found this system to be defective?
> Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
no, but it doesn't need them. all it needs is an ecu with sufficient
smarts and memory to figure out whether you're doing 10k miles on a
freeway or 2k miles with the engine never getting into closed loop
injection mode.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
the ecu has ooooodles of excess computing capacity - it's a no-brainer.
> I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me.
eh? i wish mine did it.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
honda dealers had /zero/ influence on programming it. left to dealers,
you'd only be able to use honda gasoline, honda tires and you'd need the
oil changing ever other weekend.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
why didn't you buy a ford and do that experiment then? i've worked on
enough of them to know your speculation is unfounded.
bottom line, if don't want to pay attention to the owner manual or the
experience of pros, you go ahead and do your own thing. particularly
the use of standard non-honda power steering fluid - i bet i can predict
the mechanical outcome and the validity of your warranty.
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers.
dealers, no. experienced professionals, yes.
> I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device.
suspicious???? suspicions based on what? have you researched this
subject and found this system to be defective?
> Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
no, but it doesn't need them. all it needs is an ecu with sufficient
smarts and memory to figure out whether you're doing 10k miles on a
freeway or 2k miles with the engine never getting into closed loop
injection mode.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
the ecu has ooooodles of excess computing capacity - it's a no-brainer.
> I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me.
eh? i wish mine did it.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
honda dealers had /zero/ influence on programming it. left to dealers,
you'd only be able to use honda gasoline, honda tires and you'd need the
oil changing ever other weekend.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
why didn't you buy a ford and do that experiment then? i've worked on
enough of them to know your speculation is unfounded.
bottom line, if don't want to pay attention to the owner manual or the
experience of pros, you go ahead and do your own thing. particularly
the use of standard non-honda power steering fluid - i bet i can predict
the mechanical outcome and the validity of your warranty.
01-13-2007 | 03:31 AM
#62
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:31:39 -0600, rpms0605 wrote:
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
01-13-2007 | 03:31 AM
#63
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:31:39 -0600, rpms0605 wrote:
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
01-13-2007 | 03:31 AM
#64
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:31:39 -0600, rpms0605 wrote:
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
01-13-2007 | 03:31 AM
#65
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 22:31:39 -0600, rpms0605 wrote:
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
> In <Xns98B6CA73DD973tegger@207.14.116.130> Tegger wrote:
>> rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote in news:20070110222004732-0500
>> @news1.news.adelphia.net:
>>
>>> Just bought a 2007 Civic. Real nice car but I don't particularly
>>> care for the Maintenance Minder feature. I prefer to know what
>>> mileagae they reccomend such repairs as flushing the transmission
>>> fluid or changing out the radiotor coolant or changing the air
>>> filter. Does anyone know what these mileage reccomendations are on
>>> a Honda?
>>
>>
>>
>> Just what the Maintenance Minder says.
>>
>> Of course, other than the very first oil change, there is absolutely
>> nothing to stop you from doing MORE maintenance than what the Minder
>> wants. The more the merrier. I like to do lots more than the manual
>> says.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Also, what's up with the owner's manual saying you can only use non-
>>> Honda fluids (such as tranny fluid, coolant, brake fluid) on a
>>> temporary basis. is there something special about Honda brake fluid?
>>> Isn't it illegal for a company to claim this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Not in the slightest, so long as they can prove that damage will occur
>> if non-specified fluids are used.
>>
>> Read the wording carefully. If they say Honda fluids SHOULD be used,
>> it means they'd like you to use their fluids, but it's not essential.
>> If they say Honda fluids MUST be used, well then that's gospel; the
>> machinery is designed in such a way that damage will occur with the
>> use of incorrect fluids.
>>
>> Keep in mind that non-compliant fluids are often OK for emergency --
>> very short-term -- use.
>>
>> It must be said that Honda mechanical components enjoy extraordinarily
>> long lives when properly cared for. There are advantages to buying a
>> car made by a company obsessed with engineering.
>
>
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil. Sort of a gimmick, if you ask me. Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
None. The maintenance minder uses the computer to determine the way you
drive (RPM's, speed, stop and go, etc) and works out the best time to
change your oil. It will likely be far less frequently than it would have
been otherwise (for most people).
For instance, on my '06 Civic Si, I have changed the oil twice. First
time was at around 6,000 miles, second time around 12,000. Now, if I were
following most standard oil change intervals, it would have been done
every 3,000.
Not to mention that the oil is the one thing that you don't really have to
worry about using Honda. I use Valvoline Durablend from an oil change
place.
>
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
Not likely.
01-13-2007 | 09:38 AM
#66
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
<rpms0605@yahoo.com> wrote
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
01-13-2007 | 09:38 AM
#67
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
<rpms0605@yahoo.com> wrote
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
01-13-2007 | 09:38 AM
#68
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
<rpms0605@yahoo.com> wrote
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
01-13-2007 | 09:38 AM
#69
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
<rpms0605@yahoo.com> wrote
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming
> from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this
> "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located
> throughout the
> engine and transmission? Do you think it makes economic
> sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated
> instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car? I'm a mechanical engineer and my guess is that
> this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and
> averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
How on earth would being a mechanical engineer elevate the
value of an assumption here, and a rather gross one at that?
If you google, which at a minimum you should have, you will
learn that the maintenance minder system is a lot more
complicated than your totally non-engineering guess.
> Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000
> miles (as
> recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission
> fluid/
> coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised
> me, well my
> Ford would last forever, too.
How can you call this realistic without identifying whether
there are major differences in each design's (Honda's and
Ford's) engineering?
01-13-2007 | 11:26 AM
#70
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
In article <20070112233137634-0500@news1.news.adelphia.net>,
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
01-13-2007 | 11:26 AM
#71
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
In article <20070112233137634-0500@news1.news.adelphia.net>,
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
01-13-2007 | 11:26 AM
#72
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
In article <20070112233137634-0500@news1.news.adelphia.net>,
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
01-13-2007 | 11:26 AM
#73
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
In article <20070112233137634-0500@news1.news.adelphia.net>,
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
rpms0605@yahoo.com wrote:
> Several of these replies almost sound like they're coming from Honda
> dealers. I guess I am a bit suspicious of this "Maintenance Minder"
> device. Do you really think it has sensors located throughout the
> engine and transmission?
It doesn't have to.
The Honda engineers know the effects of a wide variety of driving
conditions on their components, and take those driving conditions into
account as they calculate the maintenance intervals.
Lots of cold starts with short trips and high RPMs while cold signifies
one style of driving which would indicate short maintenance intervals,
while lots of long highway drives in moderate conditions with very few
stops and starts would indicate a completely different maintenance
interval.
You're suspicious because you haven't read up on the technology.
> Do you think it makes economic sense for Honda
> to install such complicated and sophisticated instrumentation on a $17,
> 000 car?
The algorithms, once decided upon, are applicable to ALL their cars with
very little tweaking. So the expense for any individual car is minimal.
And in the highly competitive auto market, this kind of thing is
necessary.
Let me put to you a similar question: do you think it makes economic
sense for Honda to put every occupant safety device and mechanism they
can into even their cheapest Civic DX? Because that's what they're
doing. A few years ago they announced with quite a bit of fanfare that
they have stopped the practice of giving out more safety features only
to higher priced cars and leaving lower priced cars with fewer safety
features. As they engineer a model, they are putting into it every
safety feature that's available at the time, whether it's a $17,000
Civic or a $60,000 RL.
Welcome to the world of competitive auto sales.
You so, SO badly don't want this maintenance minder to be real, you'll
grab onto anything. You SO want your own knowledge to be superior to
that of the engineers who built the car. Why?
> I'm a mechanical engineer
So? Are you an engineer with Honda? Did you engineer anything for
Honda? Do you have any factual evidence that the programming for
Honda's maintenance minder algorithms is in direct contradiction with
the requirements of the Honda engineers who engineered the mechanical
system in question?
> and my guess is that this system
> simply takes note of the mileage and temperature and averages it out to
> tell you to change the oil.
Hmmmmm. I wonder how many mechanical engineers "guess" at something
like this and then STOP without delving into it any further.
Please let me know about any bridges or anything else you've had a hand
in. I want to know what to avoid.
> Now, i
> hate to sound suspicious but when an owners manual claims you can only
> use Honda brand fluids and they also program their Maintenance Minder to
> tell you when they need changing, well, I wonder how much influence the
> Honda dealers had during the programming routine of this Maintenance
> Minder?
Actually, cars are sold nowadays based on how LITTLE maintenance they
need. Maintenance intervals are a HUGE marketing item, with "100,000
mile tuneups!" getting big headlines in the ads.
The MM isn't programmed based on what the dealers want; it's programmed,
if anything, based on its ability to keep people OUT of the dealership.
Please note that if you blindly take your car into the dealership and
tell them, "My maintenance minder says Service A," the dealership will
have his own, non-Honda list of "Service A" items--which is unrelated to
the owner's manual, but which IS related to the dealership's pocket.
They make money off of people NOT reading the owner's manual.
Let me repeat this: dealership service departments make money from
people NOT reading the owner's manual.
And if you spend any time around here at all, you'll see HUGE numbers of
people asking questions that are answered DIRECTLY by the owner's
manual. In other words, there are plenty of non-readers for the
dealership to profit from.
But the smart owner sees "Service A" on the minder, looks it up, and
asks for those services to be performed--whether at a dealer or at an
independent shop.
Or he performs them himself.
01-14-2007 | 10:11 AM
#74
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
"Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
Ford would last forever, too."
Is that a bad thing? Isn't the basis of any car performance, safety,
and RELIABILITY?
What a lot of Honda dealers in my area are doing now is making all
maintence-minder requested service free for cars bought at their
dealership. I got my 2007 Ody at Schaefer and Strohminger Honda in
Fallston, MD, and I won't have to pay for any service the maintence
minder requests until I reach 120,000 miles -- that's at least a good
eight years for me.
recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
Ford would last forever, too."
Is that a bad thing? Isn't the basis of any car performance, safety,
and RELIABILITY?
What a lot of Honda dealers in my area are doing now is making all
maintence-minder requested service free for cars bought at their
dealership. I got my 2007 Ody at Schaefer and Strohminger Honda in
Fallston, MD, and I won't have to pay for any service the maintence
minder requests until I reach 120,000 miles -- that's at least a good
eight years for me.
01-14-2007 | 10:11 AM
#75
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: reccomended maintence schedule
"Realistically, if I changed my brake fluid every 30,000 miles (as
recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
Ford would last forever, too."
Is that a bad thing? Isn't the basis of any car performance, safety,
and RELIABILITY?
What a lot of Honda dealers in my area are doing now is making all
maintence-minder requested service free for cars bought at their
dealership. I got my 2007 Ody at Schaefer and Strohminger Honda in
Fallston, MD, and I won't have to pay for any service the maintence
minder requests until I reach 120,000 miles -- that's at least a good
eight years for me.
recommended in the manual) and changed my oil/transmission fluid/
coolant whenever the dealer or Maintenance Minder advised me, well my
Ford would last forever, too."
Is that a bad thing? Isn't the basis of any car performance, safety,
and RELIABILITY?
What a lot of Honda dealers in my area are doing now is making all
maintence-minder requested service free for cars bought at their
dealership. I got my 2007 Ody at Schaefer and Strohminger Honda in
Fallston, MD, and I won't have to pay for any service the maintence
minder requests until I reach 120,000 miles -- that's at least a good
eight years for me.