Re: All-electric vehicle (was Re: Prius seldom runs on batteriesalone?)
 

On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 15:30:31 -0600, Elliot Richmond wrote:

> Dear Newsies
>
> If you want a high performance, all-electric automobile (which seems
> to where the thread was going) you might check out:
>
> http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
>
> It is based on the tZero:
>
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
>
> and uses many Lotus parts and basic chassis.
>
> There are to Honda or Toyota bits in either that I know of so this is
> an off-topic post.
>
>
> Elliot Richmond
> Itinerant astronomy teacher

Yeah, but the original was $134,000 to the first 200 customers, and
$80,000 after that!

But...va-ROOOOOM!!!!

Basically a Lotus Exige with an electric motor.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
>> from a Prius, even in cold weather.
>
> Then that makes me a weenie. <g> Likewise the other Prius owners
> who use my local T dealer/maintainer, who reports 56mphUK is what
> most drivers get, long term. (That'd be about 44.8mpgUS.)
>
> Share your secret, Bill? :-)

I am not afraid to drive slowly!
Of course the "Old Fart in Training" license plate cover helps.

Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
than excessive speeds.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <45d65311@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill Tuthill" writes:

> In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
> >> from a Prius, even in cold weather.
> >
> > Then that makes me a weenie. <g> Likewise the other Prius owners
> > who use my local T dealer/maintainer, who reports 56mphUK is what
> > most drivers get, long term. (That'd be about 44.8mpgUS.)
> >
> > Share your secret, Bill? :-)
>
> I am not afraid to drive slowly!
> Of course the "Old Fart in Training" license plate cover helps.

:-)

> Driving 75-80 mph from San Jose to Los Angeles, my wife got about
> what you UK drivers get. Short trips are far worse for Prius mileage
> than excessive speeds.

That's encouraging (for future times when/if I do similar trips)
but puzzling too. Last June, when the weather here was warm and
dry, I drove about 400 miles in one day over mostly level ground
and at 50/60-ish speeds (as fast as it was safe+legal+feasible),
getting around that 56mpgUK -- which, incidentally, I learn I've
been converting to mpgUS wrongly, making it more like 46.8mpgUS.

This figure proved so reliable that, come late Sunday as I drove
across the Yorkshire Dales, through village after village that'd
never heard of selling petrol on weekends, I could calculate the
point where my tank would run dry with some confidence; and that
journey was a wild series of undulations and twists going on for
some 50 miles, in gathering gloom, with dry stone walls flashing
past because I did NOT want to be caught out there come the dark
(on account of the famous Yorkshire werewolves, you understand).
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew Stephenson) wrote in
news:1171652924snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk:

> In article <Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
> jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:
>
>> How about charged from 120VAC line?
>> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
>> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
>> charging,not expensive gasoline.
>
> The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
> of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
> think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
> in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.
>
> Consider these stages when charging:
>
> * burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
> to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
> or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);
>
> * convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
> journey across country, losses not negligible);
>
> * convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
> then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
> losses overall).
>
> Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
> Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
> drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
> have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
> petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
> I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
> to know more.
>
> Just a thought, right?

I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source
than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants.

Transmission losses are present regardless of whether the auto is charged
from the line or not.Losses from corona discharge/leakage are far greater,I
suspect.

and you neglect the conversion losses that the auto has in going from
electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack
has.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!

OK, enough ranting....

Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
subspace temporal harmonics....

DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?


thank you

-ralph




"Ray O" <rokigawaATtristarassociatesDOTcom> wrote in message
news:5a93a$45d5e9bf$44a4a10d$16778@msgid.meganewss ervers.com...
>
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote in message
> news:gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> > "mark_digital©" wrote ...
> >> "Ray O" wrote ...
> >>> "R PRINCETON" wrote ...
> >>>>I just got a prius and am a bit disappointed that it doesn't spend
more
> >>>>time
> >>>> in electric only mode.
> >>>>
> >>>> My question is for those who have modified the car to spend more time
> >>>> in
> >>>> electric mode: did you get better mileage?
> >>>>
> >>>> -thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> -ralph
> >>>>
> >>> The hybrid controller for the Prius is designed to keep the battery
> >>> between 45% and 75% charged to prolong the life of the battery, so a
> >>> modification that lets the battery get below 45% charge may shorten
the
> >>> battery pack's life.
> >>>
> >>> Adding additional batteries would theoretically allow the vehicle to
> >>> spend more time in electric mode but then the engine would have to
spend
> >>> more time running to re-charge the battery.
> >>> Ray O
> >>
> >> Unless the excess of the engine and regenerative braking were
> >> underutilized to begin with.
> > It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based
upon
> > my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below
half
> > of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it does
> > by default.
> >
> > Doing it (controlling it) manually, however, would open up the
possibility
> > of hurting the battery on both ends inadvertently - by over and under
> > charging.
> >
> > What I would like is the ability to tweak it within limits. (Adjust it
to
> > be a bit more on the electric side.)
> > Tomes
> >
> >
>
> In every case I have read about where people have wanted to tweak or
adjust
> how the hybrid system operates, their desire has been to have the vehicle
> run in pure electric mode for a longer period or distance. I believe that
> Priuses sold in the UK have an EV button that forces the vehicle to
operate
> in electric mode as long as possible, and that real world fuel economy
> changes very little by using that mode often.
>
> --
>
> Ray O
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>
>

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <Xns98D9ECFD76CCCjyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:

> ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk (Andrew Stephenson) wrote in
> news:1171652924snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk:
>
> > In article <Xns98D97FF09C921jyanikkuanet@64.209.0.86>
> > jyanik@abuse.gov "Jim Yanik" writes:
> >
> >> How about charged from 120VAC line?
> >> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
> >> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
> >> charging,not expensive gasoline.
> >
> > The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
> > of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
> > think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
> > in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.
> >
> > Consider these stages when charging:
> >
> > * burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
> > to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
> > or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);
> >
> > * convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
> > journey across country, losses not negligible);
> >
> > * convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
> > then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
> > losses overall).
> >
> > Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
> > Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
> > drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
> > have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
> > petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
> > I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
> > to know more.
> >
> > Just a thought, right?
>
> I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source
> than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants.
>
> Transmission losses are present regardless of whether the auto is charged
> from the line or not.Losses from corona discharge/leakage are far greater,I
> suspect.
>
> and you neglect the conversion losses that the auto has in going from
> electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack
> has.

I considered listing each last tiny cause of inefficiency I could
imagine then decided to group them, eg: "* convert electricity to
form suitable for battery (low volt DC), then convert to chemical
energy, then back to electricity (huge losses overall)". Leaving
it to technically minded readers to fill in details seemed good.

We need more reliable, clear numbers.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

In article <cvzBh.3066$tD2.710@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.n et>
rlanni@access4less.net "R PRINCETON" writes:

> Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
> question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>
> OK, enough ranting....
>
> Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
> equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
> subspace temporal harmonics....
>
> DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?

Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?

The implication was that it's not worth doing. The car is set
to care for itself and the battery. "Mileage" is another word
for "efficiency" in this context. Greater efficiency turns on
making better overall use of the fuel put into the tank. Read
my past posts on my EV experiments (see recent Google). EV is
purely there to solve local problems unrelated to efficiency.

GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"RT" <noyabusiness@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:lmcat2999tukg436snqrbeehj5413rlkbk@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2007 05:50:19 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
> <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>>
>>Cold weather, particularly as the temperature drops below freezing, will
>>take the edge off fuel efficiency. I'm barely managing 30 mpg with mainly
>>3
>>mile trips in subfreezing weather right now, but when the weather warms up
>>it will go back into the mid-40s. OTOH, what other car would provide 30
>>mpg
>>under those conditions?
>
> In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that.
>

Not in three mile trips from a cold start on snowy streets, seldom exceeding
28 mph and sometimes with chains, I bet.

The weather has cleared and I'm into the 40s again (three mile trips and
all).

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Bill Tuthill" <ccreekin@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d5ee8c@news.meer.net...
> In alt.autos.toyota RT <noyabusiness@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that.
>
> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
> from a Prius, even in cold weather.
>

Short trips are the big killer (same as with conventional power trains).
Cold weather means the warm-up time is extended, and short trips mean the
driving is mainly in warm-up mode. The rule of thumb is that a cold engine
will burn about twice the fuel of a warm one, and the Prius follows that
pretty closely.

Mike

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"R PRINCETON" <rlanni@access4less.net> wrote in message
news:cvzBh.3066$tD2.710@newsread1.news.pas.earthli nk.net...
> Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
> question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>
> OK, enough ranting....
>
> Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
> equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances
> in
> subspace temporal harmonics....
>
> DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>
>
> thank you
>
> -ralph
>
>
I've looked into the EV switch (available aftermarket) so I can move the car
from the curb into the driveway without the usual condensation of acids in
the exhaust. People who have put the switch in say it doesn't affect fuel
economy either way - it's just for suppressing the engine operation when it
isn't wanted.

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota "mark_digital©" <976-XXX@comcastnot.com> wrote:
>
> There's always a possibility the engine will start anyway
> even if the car is sitting still.

I put it in Park to prevent this happening.

> If both battery packs are topped off ahead of time then
> there's no place else to store the electricity. Then the
> so-called savings from using AC utility power are diminished.

Right. Too bad the driver can't control charging by gas motor
and use of battery power, because the driver could predict this
better than the Prius computer.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:
>
> I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC source
> than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants.

Do you own a Segway? They charge from 120V, I believe,
and go about 20 miles per charge. You'd get wet in the rain.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> That's encouraging (for future times when/if I do similar trips)
> but puzzling too. Last June, when the weather here was warm and
> dry, I drove about 400 miles in one day over mostly level ground
> and at 50/60-ish speeds (as fast as it was safe+legal+feasible),
> getting around that 56mpgUK -- which, incidentally, I learn I've
> been converting to mpgUS wrongly, making it more like 46.8mpgUS.

What size tyres do you have mounted on that Prius, and what brand?
And do they really still sell gasoline in the U.K. by the imperial
gallon and not by the liter, or I suppose you would spell it litre
or some modern French- or Continental-based measurement of volume?

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

" Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?"

YES I DID. I have googled, I have read; that's why I included the reference
to coal powered electric plants. (Of course, being an old fart, I may have
missed "IT".) What I concluded is that in other countries the EV switch is
provided by Toyota. Why? Is it because using it will improve gas mileage?

I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I expected,
and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute animation in the
LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV is powering the
wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric motor by itself can
provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to improve the Prius's
"drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration. Us Americans are
accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light. While in other
countries slower accelerating vehicles are more the norm. I have also
noticed that when I take my foot off the gas after a stop the Prius 'creeps'
just like a normal automatic transmission ICV only vehicle (something that a
manual transmission driver does not need). Again, a feature to improve
drivability at the expense of mileage.

Given that it is well known that jack-rabbit starts result in significantly
lower gas mileage vs a more constant power curve, I would be willing to
accept slower starts for more gas mileage. Ergo, my interest in an EV
switch. It is also well known that an ICV engine runs much more
efficiently at a specific RPM where it generates maximum torque per gallon
of gas; so it would make sense to operate the ICV at that speed exclusively
for recharging the batteries and never for pulling the vehicle. That is why
railroads use diesel-electric engines as opposed to diesel only engines.
(Why tractor trailers don't also do this is a mystery to me.) (Yes there is
a point where the diesel engine generates electricity as fast as the
electric drive wheels consume it and that point varies with each engine
based upon its expected use.)

So back to my original question: Has anyone installed an EV switch and used
it long enough (a year or more) and noticed a marked improvement in gas
mileage (10% or more).

(Why 10%? Because that show much I improved my Bonneville's mileage simply
by using my cruise control as much as possible to accelerate the vehicle and
maintain a more constant speed than I myself could do on the highway.)

BTW; I am a Physicist by training. I am not interested in "Implications" I
want facts!


-thank you


"Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1171719278snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...
> In article <cvzBh.3066$tD2.710@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.n et>
> rlanni@access4less.net "R PRINCETON" writes:
>
> > Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
> > question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
> >
> > OK, enough ranting....
> >
> > Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total
energy
> > equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any
disturbances in
> > subspace temporal harmonics....
> >
> > DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>
> Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
> the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
> recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?
>
> The implication was that it's not worth doing. The car is set
> to care for itself and the battery. "Mileage" is another word
> for "efficiency" in this context. Greater efficiency turns on
> making better overall use of the fuel put into the tank. Read
> my past posts on my EV experiments (see recent Google). EV is
> purely there to solve local problems unrelated to efficiency.
>
> GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast.
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <45d75e3c@news.meer.net> ccreekin@yahoo.com "Bill Tuthill" writes:

> In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > That's encouraging (for future times when/if I do similar trips)
> > but puzzling too. Last June, when the weather here was warm and
> > dry, I drove about 400 miles in one day over mostly level ground
> > and at 50/60-ish speeds (as fast as it was safe+legal+feasible),
> > getting around that 56mpgUK -- which, incidentally, I learn I've
> > been converting to mpgUS wrongly, making it more like 46.8mpgUS.
>
> What size tyres do you have mounted on that Prius, and what brand?
> And do they really still sell gasoline in the U.K. by the imperial
> gallon and not by the liter, or I suppose you would spell it litre
> or some modern French- or Continental-based measurement of volume?

A multipart question? Good. Ans: Prius OEM (see other thread on
Prius tyres); Goodyear?; no; doesn't everyone?; historically yes.

FWIW, "litres/100Km" sounds daft. Many UKians still say "mpg".
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

In article <lEJBh.3207$tD2.1013@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink. net>
rlanni@access4less.net "R PRINCETON" writes:

> [...]

I'm tempted to throw this out to anyone else in the Toyota NG who
isn't thoroughly fed up with explaining the same notions over and
over. But try this (with my own questions):

> "ICV"

Don't know that term. "Internal Combustion [something]"? If you
mean the petrol [US:gas] engine, you cannot rely on how often the
mimic diagram shows it running, as a guide to relative energy o/p
of it vs the electric generator/battery/motor side of things.

Please read this bit carefully and try to accept it: the Prius is
set up to manage its own internal systems. The "EV" button seems
to have been a marketing experiment, nothing more. As far as the
NG can tell, it is fitted to EU/UK models and not to US ones. My
experimental results, which you should have found if you Googled,
show its range is functionally pathetic on the open road; it only
serves any purpose where you want to discourage (NB, not prevent)
the engine from firing up. It has no overall impact on the miles
you get out of each gallon (except in a very marginal way, due to
interference with the car's control system). It will not help in
passing Go, nor will it collect for you $200.

The petrol engine and electric motor run separately, or together,
according to whatever the car's control system thinks appropriate
so don't try to mess with it. If you don't like this arrangement
then lift the bonnet [US:hood] and put an axe through that large,
shiny box above the electric motor/generator/planetarygear lump.

> BTW; I am a Physicist by training. I am not interested in
> "Implications" I want facts!

Then you are unusual. All the Physicists (and physicists) I have
ever known have also been interested in the implications of data,
especially those which _appear_ to be anomalous.

> -thank you

You're welcome. If nobody objects, I'm going off duty now.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

R:
Polymer Science Engineer here. As a physicist, you might have run across
situations where an answer comes through discussion, as well as through a
straight answer. The discussion is what occurs here and this is the
normal course of events in this Newsgroup. This is not a flaw, it is a
feature.

Patience Grasshopper.


"R PRINCETON" <rlanni@access4less.net> wrote in message
news:lEJBh.3207$tD2.1013@newsread1.news.pas.earthl ink.net...
>" Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
> the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
> recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?"
>
> YES I DID. I have googled, I have read; that's why I included the
> reference
> to coal powered electric plants. (Of course, being an old fart, I may
> have
> missed "IT".) What I concluded is that in other countries the EV switch
> is
> provided by Toyota. Why? Is it because using it will improve gas
> mileage?
>
> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
> expected,
> and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute animation in
> the
> LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV is powering the
> wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric motor by itself can
> provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to improve the
> Prius's
> "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration. Us Americans are
> accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light. While in other
> countries slower accelerating vehicles are more the norm. I have also
> noticed that when I take my foot off the gas after a stop the Prius
> 'creeps'
> just like a normal automatic transmission ICV only vehicle (something
> that a
> manual transmission driver does not need). Again, a feature to improve
> drivability at the expense of mileage.
>
> Given that it is well known that jack-rabbit starts result in
> significantly
> lower gas mileage vs a more constant power curve, I would be willing to
> accept slower starts for more gas mileage. Ergo, my interest in an EV
> switch. It is also well known that an ICV engine runs much more
> efficiently at a specific RPM where it generates maximum torque per
> gallon
> of gas; so it would make sense to operate the ICV at that speed
> exclusively
> for recharging the batteries and never for pulling the vehicle. That is
> why
> railroads use diesel-electric engines as opposed to diesel only engines.
> (Why tractor trailers don't also do this is a mystery to me.) (Yes
> there is
> a point where the diesel engine generates electricity as fast as the
> electric drive wheels consume it and that point varies with each engine
> based upon its expected use.)
>
> So back to my original question: Has anyone installed an EV switch and
> used
> it long enough (a year or more) and noticed a marked improvement in gas
> mileage (10% or more).
>
> (Why 10%? Because that show much I improved my Bonneville's mileage
> simply
> by using my cruise control as much as possible to accelerate the vehicle
> and
> maintain a more constant speed than I myself could do on the highway.)
>
> BTW; I am a Physicist by training. I am not interested in
> "Implications" I
> want facts!
>
>
> -thank you
>
>
> "Andrew Stephenson" <ames@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1171719278snz@deltrak.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <cvzBh.3066$tD2.710@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.n et>
>> rlanni@access4less.net "R PRINCETON" writes:
>>
>> > Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my
>> > original
>> > question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>> >
>> > OK, enough ranting....
>> >
>> > Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total
> energy
>> > equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any
> disturbances in
>> > subspace temporal harmonics....
>> >
>> > DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>>
>> Did you actually READ all the responses, to your questions and
>> the others you no doubt found when you no doubt Googled on the
>> recent traffic in this NG, and THINK about them?
>>
>> The implication was that it's not worth doing. The car is set
>> to care for itself and the battery. "Mileage" is another word
>> for "efficiency" in this context. Greater efficiency turns on
>> making better overall use of the fuel put into the tank. Read
>> my past posts on my EV experiments (see recent Google). EV is
>> purely there to solve local problems unrelated to efficiency.
>>
>> GOT IT? Thank you. That ends this party political broadcast.
>> --
>> Andrew Stephenson
>>
>
>

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:n5q7t2dpf42gmp0vu71qipj66k6p4tbt0i@4ax.com...
>
> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up
> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the
> difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids
> like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure
> electric over a modest range of conditions. It would seem that the
> Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this
> correct?

As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific threshold
for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in cruise
control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't produce
electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I guess
that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive at a
single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH.

To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you need to
apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down slowly
doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this kind of
driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're alone.
Also, make sure you brake *before* you hit a curve or encounter cross
traffic.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ...
> "Jim Yanik" writes:
>> Andrew Stephenson wrote ...
>> > "Jim Yanik" writes:
>> >> How about charged from 120VAC line?
>> >> When you get home or where an outlet is available.
>> >> Then you use cheaper,more efficiently generated mains power for
>> >> charging,not expensive gasoline.
>> >
>> > The exact numbers are not to hand but, in general, the efficiency
>> > of charging from a wall socket is not as good as people generally
>> > think. It may be $cheaper to the householder than what is put in
>> > in fuel tank; but that's a red herring in the efficiency puzzle.
>> >
>> > Consider these stages when charging:
>> >
>> > * burn fuel at the power station and convert to electricity (hard
>> > to compute the efficiencies if the energy source is, say, hydro
>> > or solar or one of those, so skip them for now);
>> >
>> > * convey the electricity to wall socket and charger unit (if long
>> > journey across country, losses not negligible);
>> >
>> > * convert electricity to form suitable for battery (low volt DC),
>> > then convert to chemical energy, then back to electricity (huge
>> > losses overall).
>> >
>> > Compare this with the clever juggling the full hybrid setup does.
>> > Often the battery stays idle, as engine drives generator and that
>> > drives electric motor. If it does involve the battery, we do not
>> > have to pay for transmission losses. The higher-than-usual Prius
>> > petrol engine efficiency... hmm, I'd be guessing irresponsibly if
>> > I estimated how it matches up to the power station and would like
>> > to know more.
>> >
>> > Just a thought, right?
>>
>> I suspect that electric generation is more efficient any from 120VAC
>> source
>> than any hybrid auto,and also outputs far less pollutants.
>>
>> Transmission losses are present regardless of whether the auto is
>> charged
>> from the line or not.Losses from corona discharge/leakage are far
>> greater,I
>> suspect.
>>
>> and you neglect the conversion losses that the auto has in going from
>> electric to mechanical and back,also the self-discharge the batery pack
>> has.
>
> I considered listing each last tiny cause of inefficiency I could
> imagine then decided to group them, eg: "* convert electricity to
> form suitable for battery (low volt DC), then convert to chemical
> energy, then back to electricity (huge losses overall)". Leaving
> it to technically minded readers to fill in details seemed good.
>
> We need more reliable, clear numbers.
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>

I agree, we can wave our hands around and make points both ways, but
without real comparative numbers (which I for one do not have) it is all
just speculation.

I'm thinking that I am remembering reading that Toyota is considering the
ability to plug it in for the next version. Dunno if that would actually
happen tho.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Bill Tuthill" wrote ...
>"mark_digital©" wrote:
>>
>> There's always a possibility the engine will start anyway
>> even if the car is sitting still.
>
>I put it in Park to prevent this happening.

Doing this has not occurred to me - I will try this. I figure that I
don't need to have the engine running when I am stopped, even if it thinks
that it needs to heat something up. It can wait to do that until I
acceletate and co-use that power.
>
>> If both battery packs are topped off ahead of time then
>> there's no place else to store the electricity. Then the
>> so-called savings from using AC utility power are diminished.
>
>Right. Too bad the driver can't control charging by gas motor
>and use of battery power, because the driver could predict this
>better than the Prius computer.

This is what I am thinking, I just don't know if I am right.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Bill Tuthill" wrote ...
> RT wrote:
>> In cold weather get 30mpg ? uh, the corolla will easily do that.
>
> A driver is a total weenie if he or she cannot get > 50 MPG
> from a Prius, even in cold weather.
>
> I've been getting high 50s lately, and am looking forward to
> summer-mix gasoline (non oxygenated) with 5% higher energy content
> so I can cross 60 MPG per fill-up.
>
We are weenies too. We get 44-49 depending on the trip type here in west
central NJ. I also look forward to seeing what it will do in the summer
months.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Chuck Olson" wrote ...
> "Gordon McGrew" wrote ...
>>
>> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up
>> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the
>> difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids
>> like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure
>> electric over a modest range of conditions. It would seem that the
>> Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this
>> correct?
>
> As most have said, the battery has to be charged above a specific
> threshold
> for the ICE to turn off. I have found that you also need to be in
> cruise
> control. Normal driving with foot on the accelerator just doesn't
> produce
> electric-only operation except at very slow side-street speeds. I guess
> that's because the Prius computer doesn't trust human beings to drive at
> a
> single fixed speed. My favorite EV speed in cruise control is 34 MPH.
>
> To make sure the battery is charged and ready for EV operation, you need
> to
> apply fairly heavy braking from freeway speed.. Just slowing down slowly
> doesn't charge up the battery very efficiently. Unfortunately this kind
> of
> driving is uncomfortable for passengers, so don't do it unless you're
> alone.
> Also, make sure you brake *before* you hit a curve or encounter cross
> traffic.
>
>
Doesn't the cruise control need to be reset when the speed drops below a
certain MPH? It does on my Sienna and I believe I read that it does on
the Prius too.

Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow down
or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius User
Guide
http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf

So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius? What
is the trick?

Also, I have found that normal operation in my Prius keeps the battery
charge near the top of the blue range and often in the green range. There
is no need to perform abnormal braking stunts to ensure adequate battery
charge.
Tomes

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <XEMBh.2654$x74.2187@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink. net>
askme@here.net "Tomes" writes:

> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow down
> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius User
> Guide
> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf
>
> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius? What
> is the trick?

Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If
you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of
cruising.

Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1
mph) or down (-1 mph).
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:00:56 GMT, "R PRINCETON"
<rlanni@access4less.net> wrote:

>Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
>question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>
>OK, enough ranting....
>
>Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
>equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
>subspace temporal harmonics....
>
>DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>
>
>thank you
>
>-ralph

Ralph,

Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.

Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
fuel tank to haul around.

All of the mechanical inefficiencies are still there to which we add
the electrical inefficiencies (alternator-85% efficient, electric
motor-80% efficient, control circuity-85% to 90% efficient, battery
recharge-60% to 70%)

There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
the same performance as a gasoline-only car.

If you want an electric car, fine---buy one. But just remember, there
is a reason why the Baker Electrics and Stanley Steamers aren't sold
any more.

Jack


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Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ...
> "Tomes" writes:
>> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
>> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow
>> down
>> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius
>> User
>> Guide
>> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf
>>
>> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius?
>> What
>> is the trick?
>
> Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If
> you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of
> cruising.
>
> Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1
> mph) or down (-1 mph).
> --
> Andrew Stephenson
>
That's just it, I don't think you can. I do see this as a Toyota flaw.
In my Jeep it remembers what the cruise was set at so after paying a toll
you can just go back to the former speed without needing to find it again.
Since that one is a 5-speed, I cannot try to have it go from the startup.

And, yep, changing the cruise speed is just as you note.
Tomes

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:33:21 +0000, R PRINCETON wrote:

> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute
> animation in the LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV
> is powering the wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric motor
> by itself can provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to
> improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration.
> Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light.


This is exactly it. They use the Gas engine more in the US to provide the
performance Americans expect.

The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car
like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years
ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the
week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it
did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I
started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

In article <gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.n et>,
"Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:

> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use,

You believe in myths or is it perpetual motion?

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"Hachiroku ????" <Trueno@AE86.gts> wrote in message
news:XDRBh.5880$am1.2065@trndny01...
> On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:33:21 +0000, R PRINCETON wrote:
>
>> I have noticed that the ICV in my Prius runs way more often than I
>> expected, and for more than just recharging the batteries. The cute
>> animation in the LCD display clearly shows that most of the time the ICV
>> is powering the wheels, i.e., providing more power than the electric
>> motor
>> by itself can provide. I am suspicious that this is done so as to
>> improve the Prius's "drivability" in the US; i.e., greater acceleration.
>> Us Americans are accustomed to "tearing" away from the traffic light.
>
>
> This is exactly it. They use the Gas engine more in the US to provide the
> performance Americans expect.
>
> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car
> like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years
> ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the
> week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it
> did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I
> started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.
>

If the traction battery has the charged potential to move the car 1000 ft it
doesn't matter if it's at acceleration from a dead stop or dispersed for the
next couple of miles.
So, I agree with your experience 100%. I disagree with your one week
assessment of mpg though, unless you filled the tank several times during
that week.

Re: Re:What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

BTW, I'll be at Thorn's market today sometime around 1 pm. I'm easy to spot.
I won't be wearing a winter coat ;)

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:37gft253roh0tm5d721o4ebdb9ikh0a81r@4ax.com...
>
> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
> 1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
> locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
> diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
> would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
> up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
> traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
> the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
> wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>
You are right about the way locomotives operate and why they are
diesel-electric (as are many truly huge machines). But you are mistaken to
call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They
just have electric transmissions.

Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on
the infancy of the technology.

> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
> fuel tank to haul around.
>

Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual problem.
Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for nearly
the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago) I
immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.

>
> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>

Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics of
hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car with
a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run for
their money; a Tesla (http://tinyurl.com/n52mh) with a small generator
tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda (http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o) and Toyota
(http://tinyurl.com/2w379) have both demonstrated concept cars that clearly
fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and 400
hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers pointed
out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.

Mike

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

"who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message
news:i-FAFC13.00570718022007@news.telus.net...
> In article <gTjBh.2094$x74.744@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.n et>,
> "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:
>
>> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use,
>
> You believe in myths or is it perpetual motion?

I think you misunderstand the statement. If the meaning was "the car reuses
only part of the energy that was regenerated" that matches my experience and
even the logic - there is considerable loss and waste in the process. Toyota
says "up to 30%" of regenerated energy is reusable, so the process is pretty
lossy. But it isn't nearly as inefficient as getting the energy out of an
engine running at 10% power, so it still contributes to the overall gain.
There is a wide misconception that regeneration is a major source of
the hybrid's efficiency advantage. In actuality, it is a very minor
contributor.

Mike

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>news:37gft253roh0tm5d721o4ebdb9ikh0a81r@4ax.com.. .
>>
>> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
>> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
>> 1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
>> locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
>> diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
>> would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
>> up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
>> traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
>> the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
>> wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>>
>You are right about the way locomotives operate and why they are
>diesel-electric (as are many truly huge machines). But you are mistaken to
>call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They
>just have electric transmissions.

Okay if you don't want to call a diesel-electric locomotive a hybrid,
that's fine with me. But you shouldn't call hybrid cars hybrids
either. They get all of their energy from their IC engine also. The
only difference is that hybrid cars also have a mechanical drive train
along with their electrical one.
>
>Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
>engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
>engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on
>the infancy of the technology.

No, it uses the IC engine more. The IC engine powers the car at all
times, even when it isn't running. If the IC engine isn't running,
the car is using energy produced by the IC engine at some time in the
past and stored in the batteries.
>
>> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
>> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>> fuel tank to haul around.
>>
>
>Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual problem.
>Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
>inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for nearly
>the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
>cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago) I
>immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.
>
>>
>> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>>
>
>Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics of
>hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
>power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
>independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
>without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
>production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car with
>a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
>serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run for
>their money; a Tesla (http://tinyurl.com/n52mh) with a small generator
>tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda (http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o) and Toyota
>(http://tinyurl.com/2w379) have both demonstrated concept cars that clearly
>fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
>range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and 400
>hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers pointed
>out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
>torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
>conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.

You're confusing acceleration performance with efficiency.
>
>Mike
>
Mike, you can't ignore physics. It takes energy to accelerate mass.
Increase the mass and you have to increase the energy input to
maintain the same performance level. That's why all economy cars are
small and light. More mass also equals higher rolling resistance
which requires energy to overcome.

You can use a battery and electric motor to increase the acceleration
performance of a car with a small IC engine but you will have to put
back the energy you have used at sometime in the future. Each time
you convert from one form of energy to another, you will have losses
which can't be overcome. You start out with the chemical energy
contained in a gallon of gas. Then you burn that gas to produce heat
energy but you can't capture all of the heat. You convert that heat
energy into mechanical energy with an IC engine which has internal
friction losses. Both hybrids and conventional cars have these same
losses. To this, a hybrid car adds changing that mechanical energy
into electrical energy using an alternator, friction losses and heat
losses. You use that electrical energy to recharge a battery
converting electrical energy back into chemical energy with it's
associated losses. Then, at some time in the future, you discharge
that battery converting its chemical energy back into electrical
energy with more losses and that electrical energy back into
mechanical energy with even more losses.

There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a
thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add
up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this
ethanol plant I have for sale.

Don't get me wrong, I like ethanol. When its aged in charred oak
barrels for 10 years or so and then mixed with a little water. But
burn it for fuel....man, that's just plain wrong.


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Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 04:56:22 GMT, "Tomes" <askme@here.net> wrote:

>"Andrew Stephenson" wrote ...
>> "Tomes" writes:
>>> Ah - I found it: "Slowing down to less than 24 MPH (39 km/h) will cause
>>> the cruise-control "resume" memory to reset. So if you have to slow
>>> down
>>> or stop, you'll need to set the speed again." - From the Toyota Prius
>>> User
>>> Guide
>>> http://john1701a.com/prius/documents...User-Guide.pdf
>>>
>>> So how do you start and accelerate in cruise control in the Prius?
>>> What
>>> is the trick?
>>
>> Can't answer the "how to start in cruise" part: never tried. If
>> you think about it, start and/or accelerate are not big parts of
>> cruising.
>>
>> Changing cruise speed I do by the book: flip cruise lever up (+1
>> mph) or down (-1 mph).
>> --
>> Andrew Stephenson
>>
>That's just it, I don't think you can. I do see this as a Toyota flaw.
>In my Jeep it remembers what the cruise was set at so after paying a toll
>you can just go back to the former speed without needing to find it again.
>Since that one is a 5-speed, I cannot try to have it go from the startup.
>
>And, yep, changing the cruise speed is just as you note.
>Tomes

I guess every manufacturer does it differently. Honda cruise control
will remember the speed until you shut off the engine or at least the
CC master switch. However, the CC cannot be engaged at speeds below
~20 mph. I think they want to prevent someone from inadvertently
engaging the CC and having the car jump from a stationary position.

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

Gordon McGrew wrote:
> I rode in a friend's Prius and he showed me that the engine started up
> before he hit 5 mph even under mild acceleration. I thought the
> difference between the "full" hybrids like Prius and "mild" hybrids
> like the Civic was the ability of the former to operate as a pure
> electric over a modest range of conditions. It would seem that the
> Prius' all electric performance is very modest indeed. Is this
> correct?

The Prius can run for a very short time on battery only, but the battery
pack isn't large enough to run the car very long or very fast on battery
power alone.

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 22:32:54 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:00:56 GMT, "R PRINCETON"
><rlanni@access4less.net> wrote:
>
>>Unbelievable! 11 answers and counting and no-one answers my original
>>question! Are you all a bunch of politicians!?!?!?!
>>
>>OK, enough ranting....
>>
>>Ignoring, increased wear and tear on the batteries or engine, total energy
>>equations involving my old coal powered power plant; and any disturbances in
>>subspace temporal harmonics....
>>
>>DID THE EV only switch increase peoples mileage? and by how much?
>>
>>
>>thank you
>>
>>-ralph
>
>Ralph,
>
>Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
>are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
>1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
>locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
>diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
>would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
>up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
>traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
>the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
>wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>
>Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem.

How is improving fuel efficiency a political problem?

> Your
>car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>fuel tank to haul around.
>
>All of the mechanical inefficiencies are still there to which we add
>the electrical inefficiencies (alternator-85% efficient, electric
>motor-80% efficient, control circuity-85% to 90% efficient, battery
>recharge-60% to 70%)
>
>There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>the same performance as a gasoline-only car.

Your theoretical argument about efficiencies reminds me of
creationists who want to make statistical arguments to claim evolution
couldn't happen. Dude, the proof is right before your face. Hybrids
get much better mileage than a similar/identical car with similar
performance with only an ICE.

>If you want an electric car, fine---buy one. But just remember, there
>is a reason why the Baker Electrics and Stanley Steamers aren't sold
>any more.
>
>Jack
>

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 10:50:42 -0500, You guess
<jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:14:04 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
><michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>>"You guess" <jackj^remove^180@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>>news:37gft253roh0tm5d721o4ebdb9ikh0a81r@4ax.com. ..
>>>
>>> Stop and think about hybrids, what they are and how they work. Hybrids
>>> are nothing new, the railroads have been using them for since the
>>> 1940's. Almost all freight trains are pulled by diesel-electric
>>> locomotives. They use diesel-electric for one reason only. A pure
>>> diesel locomotive would require a clutch that you couldn't believe. It
>>> would have to slip for 10 minutes or more while the train was brought
>>> up to speed while transferring as much as 2,000 horse power to the
>>> traction wheels through a 50 speed transmission. The electrics take
>>> the place of this 40 foot diameter, electric fan cooled, multi-plate
>>> wet-clutch as well as the mechanical drive lines.
>>>
>>You are right about the way locomotives operate and why they are
>>diesel-electric (as are many truly huge machines). But you are mistaken to
>>call them hybrids - they have only one power source, the diesel engine. They
>>just have electric transmissions.
>
>Okay if you don't want to call a diesel-electric locomotive a hybrid,
>that's fine with me. But you shouldn't call hybrid cars hybrids
>either. They get all of their energy from their IC engine also. The
>only difference is that hybrid cars also have a mechanical drive train
>along with their electrical one.
>>
>>Hybrids today get their main efficiency improvement from not using the
>>engine as much to do ludicrously inefficient work. As the OP noted, the
>>engine is still used at times that don't make a lot of sense. Blame that on
>>the infancy of the technology.
>
>No, it uses the IC engine more. The IC engine powers the car at all
>times, even when it isn't running. If the IC engine isn't running,
>the car is using energy produced by the IC engine at some time in the
>past and stored in the batteries.
>>
>>> Your hybrid car is a political solution to a political problem. Your
>>> car has to haul around heavy batteries, a big generator to recharge
>>> the batteries and all the electronics needed to control the electric
>>> motor, the charge going into the batteries and monitoring the
>>> condition of the batteries. Plus it STILL has a gas IC engine and
>>> fuel tank to haul around.
>>>
>>
>>Actually, it is an engineering solution to a fundamental conceptual problem.
>>Even as a teenager learning about cars I was struck by the horrible
>>inefficiencies of using large engines to put out negligible power for nearly
>>the entire range of the car's operation. But it was the '60s and gas was
>>cheap. When I first heard about hybrid power trains (around 20 years ago) I
>>immediately recognized them as the solution to the century-old problem.
>>
>>>
>>> There is no way it can get the same over-all mileage and still have
>>> the same performance as a gasoline-only car.
>>>
>>
>>Ah - that's where you are 100% wrong. One of the central characteristics of
>>hybridization is that the acceleration performance is independent of the
>>power plant capacity, just as a conventional power train's performance is
>>independent of fuel tank size. The engine can be off or just plain dead
>>without affecting the immediate performance of a serial hybrid (none in
>>production yet, sadly). A serial hybrid is essentially an electric car with
>>a charging system on-board. Right now the technology exists to build a
>>serial hybrid that will give the hottest conventional power trains a run for
>>their money; a Tesla (http://tinyurl.com/n52mh) with a small generator
>>tucked somewhere would qualify. Honda (http://tinyurl.com/y96x8o) and Toyota
>>(http://tinyurl.com/2w379) have both demonstrated concept cars that clearly
>>fall in the high performance range and deliver fuel economy in the miser
>>range - 400 hp and an estimated 40 mpg for the parallel hybrid Honda and 400
>>hp and 32 mpg for the series-parallel hybrid Toyota. Honda engineers pointed
>>out in the Popular Mechanics article back then that using electrics for
>>torque provides off-the-line acceleration equivalent to a 600 hp
>>conventional power train. Toyota simply mentions 0-60 mph in 4 seconds.
>
>You're confusing acceleration performance with efficiency.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>Mike, you can't ignore physics. It takes energy to accelerate mass.
>Increase the mass and you have to increase the energy input to
>maintain the same performance level. That's why all economy cars are
>small and light. More mass also equals higher rolling resistance
>which requires energy to overcome.
>
>You can use a battery and electric motor to increase the acceleration
>performance of a car with a small IC engine but you will have to put
>back the energy you have used at sometime in the future. Each time
>you convert from one form of energy to another, you will have losses
>which can't be overcome. You start out with the chemical energy
>contained in a gallon of gas. Then you burn that gas to produce heat
>energy but you can't capture all of the heat. You convert that heat
>energy into mechanical energy with an IC engine which has internal
>friction losses. Both hybrids and conventional cars have these same
>losses. To this, a hybrid car adds changing that mechanical energy
>into electrical energy using an alternator, friction losses and heat
>losses. You use that electrical energy to recharge a battery
>converting electrical energy back into chemical energy with it's
>associated losses. Then, at some time in the future, you discharge
>that battery converting its chemical energy back into electrical
>energy with more losses and that electrical energy back into
>mechanical energy with even more losses.

But you are neglecting the factors which make hybrids more efficient:

The electrical system provides a means of recovering kinetic energy
during braking. The energy which would have gone into heating the
brake rotors (and wearing out the pads) is converted to energy stored
in the battery. Virtually all of the battery charge comes from this
source. Even 50% efficiency in recovery of energy which would have
been wasted is efficient.

The availability of energy stored in the battery means that the engine
doesn't have to provide all the energy under conditions of maximum
demand. This allows the engine power to be down rated and therefore
run at more efficient (higher) power levels more of the time, e.g.
cruising.

The availability of electric drive allows the engine to be shut down
at times when it is least efficient, e.g. idle and low speed
operation.

But don't try to factor all this together, just look at it as a black
box. You put gas in and go farther and/or faster than in a comparable
non-hybrid car. What more evidence do you want?

>There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Perpitual motion is a
>thing of fiction. If you believe all of these conversion losses add
>up to an increase in efficiency then you might want to buy this
>ethanol plant I have for sale.

If it is in Scotland and they are aging it for at least 12 years, let
me know.

You act like hybrids are hydrogen fuel cells. People are driving
hybrids now and getting far better mileage than with conventional
cars. It is a proven, practical technology. Using your reasoning, a
Prius should be getting 16mpg and no one would be selling them, let
alone buying them.

>Don't get me wrong, I like ethanol. When its aged in charred oak
>barrels for 10 years or so and then mixed with a little water. But
>burn it for fuel....man, that's just plain wrong.

But they make it with corn. If they were making it with barley, you
would have a point. ;-]

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

> The funny thing is, the average American Prius driver drives the damn car
> like a silver-haired Granny in the 1964 F-85 she bought brand new 43 years
> ago. So adding the EV mode would be a good idea on Toyota's part. In the
> week I drove one, I spent some time crawling from a start, and found it
> did NOTHING! I was getting better mileage with an AT Tercel. When I
> started driving it 'normal', the numbers didn't budge.

Yes, and you've already said that that was on a pre-production model
in 2000. The car has had numerous changes since then! I suggest that
you try another week test drive in a current NHW20 Prius.

(There's also far better emissions controls (notorious for lowering
fuel economy) since your AT Tercel... and I won't get into the apples
and oranges of comparing a manual to an automatic CVT...)

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

On Feb 17, 2:57 pm, Bill Tuthill <ccree...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In alt.autos.toyota Andrew Stephenson <a...@deltrak.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> What size tyres do you have mounted on that Prius, and what brand?
> And do they really still sell gasoline in the U.K. by the imperial
> gallon and not by the liter, or I suppose you would spell it litre
> or some modern French- or Continental-based measurement of volume?

2004-2007 UK tire
Bridgestone Turanza ER30
195/55R16
87V

(Note the different size than the US!)

UK and Canada uses MPG using imperial gallons. Canada and most
everywhere else use l/100km. Japan still uses km/l.

Re: What about the mileage!?!?!?!?!
 

In article <rh2ht29qdd7068bbkge1qgvb7v9r0sc28d@4ax.com>
RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com "Gordon McGrew" writes:

> [...]
>
> But you are neglecting the factors which make hybrids more
> efficient:
>
> The electrical system provides a means of recovering kinetic
> energy during braking. The energy which would have gone into
> heating the brake rotors (and wearing out the pads) is
> converted to energy stored in the battery. [...]

Most anti-hybrid kooks are narrowband thinkers. They don't like
to see the world as a web of influences. A simple straight line
is about as complex as they can handle. For example, your point
about the regeneration system sparing the vehicle's brakes ought
to suggest to them another indirect saving: less wear on brakes;
longer intervals between replacements; less use of materials and
energy in their manufacture/replacement; and lower bills. Yet I
live in hope that it'll click for them, one day.
--
Andrew Stephenson

Re: Prius seldom runs on batteries alone?
 

On Feb 16, 10:14 am, "Tomes" <a...@here.net> wrote:

> It is my unscientific belief that I regenerate more than I use, based upon
> my observation that I am in the green a lot and hardly ever go below half
> of the blue. Thus, I would like to use the electric moreso that it does
> by default.

You can view the NHW20 Prius battery charge levels at:
http://privatenrg.com/#Full_SOC

You'd know if you regenerated too much energy by your Prius trying to
get rid of extra charge. People who have just come down a long
downhill (mountain) often report that at a stop their engine will
cycle on/off repeatedly. The Prius will try to bleed off the high SOC
by having one of the electric motors repeatedly start and spin the
gasoline engine...

(Also, if the hybrid battery cannot accept any more charge, it simply
will not. You will no longer have regenerative braking, and will be
switched to a higher percentage of conventional hydrolic braking.)

If you are just driving around in the green and don't notice anything
else different, then you aren't regenerating more than you can use...