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Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
On Wed, 03 May 2006 14:48:15 GMT, "edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>Really, 46 percent less than advertised amounts to a lot of variables. The point is, Honda must use the EPA figures. They have no choice. Consumer Reports knows this. Their test was designed to be extreme and it provides valuable information about just how far off the EPA figures can be. The reporter who used the CR information seemed to be trying to make a case that Honda was concealing information about real-world fuel consumption by using the EPA estimates as part of a marketing strategy. I do not think that case can be made. Honda may be pleased the EPA estimates are so high for their cars, but pleased or not, they are required by law to report them. I'm done. Elliot Richmond Itinerant Curmudgeon |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
"edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Po36g.9448$9o4.8357@tornado.tampabay.rr.com.. . > Really, 46 percent less than advertised amounts to a lot of variables. Not at all. For example, creeping in stop and go traffic (in any car) may get you less than 1/4 the EPA rating for city driving. A while back I saw a link to an article about early Prius cars being used in city police applications. The patrolmen were incensed that the cars reported thay got as little as 15 mpg, but the article pointed out they were run all day and were racking up less than 10 miles. When on traffic duty there was a whole lot of idle time. It's likely their previous cars were getting less than 5 mpg but they never noticed. Assuming the industry swings toward more efficient cars the gap will only widen. Only part of the fuel we burn goes toward getting us from one place to another, and if the remainder stays the same while the genuine mpg improves the anguished cries will get louder. After all, if your house were run on gasoline instead of electricity and natural gas, how many mpg would your house get? Zero. Mike |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
"edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Po36g.9448$9o4.8357@tornado.tampabay.rr.com.. . > Really, 46 percent less than advertised amounts to a lot of variables. Not at all. For example, creeping in stop and go traffic (in any car) may get you less than 1/4 the EPA rating for city driving. A while back I saw a link to an article about early Prius cars being used in city police applications. The patrolmen were incensed that the cars reported thay got as little as 15 mpg, but the article pointed out they were run all day and were racking up less than 10 miles. When on traffic duty there was a whole lot of idle time. It's likely their previous cars were getting less than 5 mpg but they never noticed. Assuming the industry swings toward more efficient cars the gap will only widen. Only part of the fuel we burn goes toward getting us from one place to another, and if the remainder stays the same while the genuine mpg improves the anguished cries will get louder. After all, if your house were run on gasoline instead of electricity and natural gas, how many mpg would your house get? Zero. Mike |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
"edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Po36g.9448$9o4.8357@tornado.tampabay.rr.com.. . > Really, 46 percent less than advertised amounts to a lot of variables. Not at all. For example, creeping in stop and go traffic (in any car) may get you less than 1/4 the EPA rating for city driving. A while back I saw a link to an article about early Prius cars being used in city police applications. The patrolmen were incensed that the cars reported thay got as little as 15 mpg, but the article pointed out they were run all day and were racking up less than 10 miles. When on traffic duty there was a whole lot of idle time. It's likely their previous cars were getting less than 5 mpg but they never noticed. Assuming the industry swings toward more efficient cars the gap will only widen. Only part of the fuel we burn goes toward getting us from one place to another, and if the remainder stays the same while the genuine mpg improves the anguished cries will get louder. After all, if your house were run on gasoline instead of electricity and natural gas, how many mpg would your house get? Zero. Mike |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
On Wed, 03 May 2006 14:49:18 GMT, "edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>But 46 %?????? Could you post 'but 46%' a few more times, i think the really slow, stupid people at the back haven't yet realised you've read thew news story and haven't actually understood what its NOT saying. EPa - government mandated test whos results MUST be reported. no choice, no options int he matter, and the test isn't done by honda. So i can hardly see how the car company is covering anything up. Government does the test, government makes them report the results, I don't see anything there a person with the intelect of a cabbage couldn't follow there, so maybe you'll understandnow Secondly, whilst the EPA test methods are well known, I've not seen the conditions for the CR test reported. Sooo, lets say they've got a 500lb driver, carrying 3 paving stones in the back, its a manual car (we'll be nice) and he revs the bollocks off it at lights, lots of wheel spin as he drops the clutch, uses the accelerator, right up until the last second, then slams ont he brakes, ravving the engine as he does so in neutral. , oh, and he keeps it irevving as pfast as possible. all this on underinflated tyres, and in a busy tailback of stop+go traffic. Thats the CR test, and to be honest, 26mpg is f-ing amazing in those conditions. Of course, to some people, trying to explain things like this is like trying to explain to a brick what orange smells like. I have a feling you're one of those. >"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:dpdg521r5odhb7bbclsvrhj6c5fmaogvdm@4ax.com.. . >> On Tue, 02 May 2006 13:43:52 GMT, "edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote: >> >>>Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>>Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. >>> >>>For more infl go to: >>>http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html >>> >> >> The CR city milage test is pretty brutal. It can easily be as far >> below typical city milage as the EPA is high. Not to say that the CR >> test isn't realistic, it is just realistic of the worst case scenario. >> >> > |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
On Wed, 03 May 2006 14:49:18 GMT, "edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>But 46 %?????? Could you post 'but 46%' a few more times, i think the really slow, stupid people at the back haven't yet realised you've read thew news story and haven't actually understood what its NOT saying. EPa - government mandated test whos results MUST be reported. no choice, no options int he matter, and the test isn't done by honda. So i can hardly see how the car company is covering anything up. Government does the test, government makes them report the results, I don't see anything there a person with the intelect of a cabbage couldn't follow there, so maybe you'll understandnow Secondly, whilst the EPA test methods are well known, I've not seen the conditions for the CR test reported. Sooo, lets say they've got a 500lb driver, carrying 3 paving stones in the back, its a manual car (we'll be nice) and he revs the bollocks off it at lights, lots of wheel spin as he drops the clutch, uses the accelerator, right up until the last second, then slams ont he brakes, ravving the engine as he does so in neutral. , oh, and he keeps it irevving as pfast as possible. all this on underinflated tyres, and in a busy tailback of stop+go traffic. Thats the CR test, and to be honest, 26mpg is f-ing amazing in those conditions. Of course, to some people, trying to explain things like this is like trying to explain to a brick what orange smells like. I have a feling you're one of those. >"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:dpdg521r5odhb7bbclsvrhj6c5fmaogvdm@4ax.com.. . >> On Tue, 02 May 2006 13:43:52 GMT, "edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote: >> >>>Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>>Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. >>> >>>For more infl go to: >>>http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html >>> >> >> The CR city milage test is pretty brutal. It can easily be as far >> below typical city milage as the EPA is high. Not to say that the CR >> test isn't realistic, it is just realistic of the worst case scenario. >> >> > |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
On Wed, 03 May 2006 14:49:18 GMT, "edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote:
>But 46 %?????? Could you post 'but 46%' a few more times, i think the really slow, stupid people at the back haven't yet realised you've read thew news story and haven't actually understood what its NOT saying. EPa - government mandated test whos results MUST be reported. no choice, no options int he matter, and the test isn't done by honda. So i can hardly see how the car company is covering anything up. Government does the test, government makes them report the results, I don't see anything there a person with the intelect of a cabbage couldn't follow there, so maybe you'll understandnow Secondly, whilst the EPA test methods are well known, I've not seen the conditions for the CR test reported. Sooo, lets say they've got a 500lb driver, carrying 3 paving stones in the back, its a manual car (we'll be nice) and he revs the bollocks off it at lights, lots of wheel spin as he drops the clutch, uses the accelerator, right up until the last second, then slams ont he brakes, ravving the engine as he does so in neutral. , oh, and he keeps it irevving as pfast as possible. all this on underinflated tyres, and in a busy tailback of stop+go traffic. Thats the CR test, and to be honest, 26mpg is f-ing amazing in those conditions. Of course, to some people, trying to explain things like this is like trying to explain to a brick what orange smells like. I have a feling you're one of those. >"Gordon McGrew" <RgEmMcOgVrEew@mindspring.com> wrote in message >news:dpdg521r5odhb7bbclsvrhj6c5fmaogvdm@4ax.com.. . >> On Tue, 02 May 2006 13:43:52 GMT, "edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote: >> >>>Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>>Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. >>> >>>For more infl go to: >>>http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html >>> >> >> The CR city milage test is pretty brutal. It can easily be as far >> below typical city milage as the EPA is high. Not to say that the CR >> test isn't realistic, it is just realistic of the worst case scenario. >> >> > |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
"edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0s36g.12846$%x.7696@tornado.tampabay.rr.com.. . > 46 perceent is a lot of variables. Large variables. It is perfectly possible for a car to get zero mpg (yours does it at every stop light). Mike > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message > news:6vidnaAU6L1WOMXZRVn-og@sedona.net... >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... >>> edb wrote: >>>> >>>> Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>>> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. >>>> >>>> For more infl go to: >>>> http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html >>> >>> From the article... >>> >>> "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." >>> >>> My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I >>> find >>> extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with the >>> "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. It >>> makes >>> me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last 18 years? >>> >>> Eric >> >> This gets into the question of "what kind of service?" If it's 37 mpg on >> a flat 65 mph highway, that's decent. If it's on a 75 mph freeway, that's >> pretty good indeed. If it's in town, that's phenomenal for a conventional >> gasoline power train and awful for a hybrid. If it's on snow covered >> roads, mysterious men in black trench coats will come to learn your >> secret. >> >> Nobody ever took "your mileage may vary" seriously until their mileage >> varied ;-) >> >> Mike >> > > |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
"edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0s36g.12846$%x.7696@tornado.tampabay.rr.com.. . > 46 perceent is a lot of variables. Large variables. It is perfectly possible for a car to get zero mpg (yours does it at every stop light). Mike > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message > news:6vidnaAU6L1WOMXZRVn-og@sedona.net... >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... >>> edb wrote: >>>> >>>> Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>>> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. >>>> >>>> For more infl go to: >>>> http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html >>> >>> From the article... >>> >>> "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." >>> >>> My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I >>> find >>> extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with the >>> "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. It >>> makes >>> me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last 18 years? >>> >>> Eric >> >> This gets into the question of "what kind of service?" If it's 37 mpg on >> a flat 65 mph highway, that's decent. If it's on a 75 mph freeway, that's >> pretty good indeed. If it's in town, that's phenomenal for a conventional >> gasoline power train and awful for a hybrid. If it's on snow covered >> roads, mysterious men in black trench coats will come to learn your >> secret. >> >> Nobody ever took "your mileage may vary" seriously until their mileage >> varied ;-) >> >> Mike >> > > |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
"edb" <edb352@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:0s36g.12846$%x.7696@tornado.tampabay.rr.com.. . > 46 perceent is a lot of variables. Large variables. It is perfectly possible for a car to get zero mpg (yours does it at every stop light). Mike > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message > news:6vidnaAU6L1WOMXZRVn-og@sedona.net... >> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message >> news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... >>> edb wrote: >>>> >>>> Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>>> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. >>>> >>>> For more infl go to: >>>> http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html >>> >>> From the article... >>> >>> "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >>> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." >>> >>> My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I >>> find >>> extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with the >>> "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. It >>> makes >>> me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last 18 years? >>> >>> Eric >> >> This gets into the question of "what kind of service?" If it's 37 mpg on >> a flat 65 mph highway, that's decent. If it's on a 75 mph freeway, that's >> pretty good indeed. If it's in town, that's phenomenal for a conventional >> gasoline power train and awful for a hybrid. If it's on snow covered >> roads, mysterious men in black trench coats will come to learn your >> secret. >> >> Nobody ever took "your mileage may vary" seriously until their mileage >> varied ;-) >> >> Mike >> > > |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
Michael Pardee wrote:
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... > > edb wrote: > >> > >> Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer > >> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. > >> > >> For more infl go to: > >> http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html > > > > From the article... > > > > "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer > > Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." > > > > My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I > > find extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with > > the "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. > > It makes me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last > > 18 years? > > > > Eric > > This gets into the question of "what kind of service?" If it's 37 mpg on a > flat 65 mph highway, that's decent. If it's on a 75 mph freeway, that's > pretty good indeed. If it's in town, that's phenomenal for a conventional > gasoline power train and awful for a hybrid. If it's on snow covered > roads, mysterious men in black trench coats will come to learn your > secret. It's average mpg over the last 2210 miles of driving which includes both city and highway driving (probably a 35%/65% split between the two). Eric |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
Michael Pardee wrote:
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... > > edb wrote: > >> > >> Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer > >> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. > >> > >> For more infl go to: > >> http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html > > > > From the article... > > > > "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer > > Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." > > > > My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I > > find extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with > > the "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. > > It makes me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last > > 18 years? > > > > Eric > > This gets into the question of "what kind of service?" If it's 37 mpg on a > flat 65 mph highway, that's decent. If it's on a 75 mph freeway, that's > pretty good indeed. If it's in town, that's phenomenal for a conventional > gasoline power train and awful for a hybrid. If it's on snow covered > roads, mysterious men in black trench coats will come to learn your > secret. It's average mpg over the last 2210 miles of driving which includes both city and highway driving (probably a 35%/65% split between the two). Eric |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
Michael Pardee wrote:
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... > > edb wrote: > >> > >> Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer > >> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference. > >> > >> For more infl go to: > >> http://www.wesh.com/painatthepump/9141621/detail.html > > > > From the article... > > > > "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer > > Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." > > > > My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I > > find extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with > > the "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. > > It makes me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last > > 18 years? > > > > Eric > > This gets into the question of "what kind of service?" If it's 37 mpg on a > flat 65 mph highway, that's decent. If it's on a 75 mph freeway, that's > pretty good indeed. If it's in town, that's phenomenal for a conventional > gasoline power train and awful for a hybrid. If it's on snow covered > roads, mysterious men in black trench coats will come to learn your > secret. It's average mpg over the last 2210 miles of driving which includes both city and highway driving (probably a 35%/65% split between the two). Eric |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
Steve, but not the Australian Steve wrote:
> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... >> From the article... >> >> "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." >> >> My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I >> find >> extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with the >> "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. It makes >> me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last 18 years? >> >> Eric > > > IIRC, Honda Civics and the CRX HF used to be advertised as getting close to > 60 mpg in the mid-late 80's. > > As far as what happened, safety features add weight. The market demands > comfort and comfort features add weight. > > I had 2 CRX HF's. The 1st was bought new & averaged 50MPG over 50,000 Miles. The 2nd was used, & averaged 45MPG. Currently driving a 94 Civic VX. 43+MPG over 23,000 Miles. All cars were equipped with A/C & Cruise control. |
Re: Pain At The Pump: Government Gas Secrets
Steve, but not the Australian Steve wrote:
> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message news:445875F4.629F7A86@spam.now... >> From the article... >> >> "Honda claims its hybrid Civic sedan gets 48 mpg in the city. Consumer >> Reports found it only gets 26 mpg -- a 46 percent difference." >> >> My '88 Honda Civic with 244K mi gets a very real world 37 mpg. What I >> find >> extraordinary is that even cars, such as hybrids, engineered with the >> "latest and greatest" technology still are not that much better. It makes >> me wonder what have car manufacturers been doing for the last 18 years? >> >> Eric > > > IIRC, Honda Civics and the CRX HF used to be advertised as getting close to > 60 mpg in the mid-late 80's. > > As far as what happened, safety features add weight. The market demands > comfort and comfort features add weight. > > I had 2 CRX HF's. The 1st was bought new & averaged 50MPG over 50,000 Miles. The 2nd was used, & averaged 45MPG. Currently driving a 94 Civic VX. 43+MPG over 23,000 Miles. All cars were equipped with A/C & Cruise control. |
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