In article <0uba42hefs5jvqkrhr8qgks88up1fsb86b@4ax.com>, flobert
<nomail@here.NOT> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:00:07 GMT, Larry the Free
> <usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote:
>
> >Waiving the right to remain silent, jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
> >
> >> Those people that want to impress their friends and Co-workers
> >> with a Hybrid vehicle would prefer the Toyota Prius since
> >> it looks like a Hybrid.
> >
> >What does a Hybrid "look like"..? Why should it look any different than
> >an ordinary car..?
>
> Because how else will the poseurs driving them convay to everyone how
> 'enviromentally hip' they are (omitting that it'll take some 100,000
> miles to offset the pollution caused by the battery production,
> however many miles the disposal of the batteries will take, and how
> they could probably get similar performance and economy if the heavy
> electrical system was taken out anyway (acceleration = force/mass,
> reduce the mass, you need less force - same as a car with 4 boss
> hawg's in will have to work much harder than if there were 4 japanese
> schoolgirls, all in very light clothes in there)
>
> >
> >Honda's original Hybrid looked so odd, it's no wonder they couldn't sell
> >them.
>
> not so much spin on it, and no celbrity endorsements. Cars sell on
> coolness, nothing else. If its not cool, it won't sell. Thats why
> motorsports are so important to manufacturers. Rallying, touring cars,
> movies etc. all help sell the cars by making them cool. look at wht
> the Italian job did for the mini's. I get in one, I sure want to race
> around Turin. gone n 60 seconds helped make the mustang iconic. Jackie
> chan and mitsubishi... the list is endless.

flobert,
I agreed with every word. I could not have said it better.
Jason

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In article <0uba42hefs5jvqkrhr8qgks88up1fsb86b@4ax.com>, flobert
<nomail@here.NOT> wrote:

> On Mon, 17 Apr 2006 22:00:07 GMT, Larry the Free
> <usenet2@DE.LETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote:
>
> >Waiving the right to remain silent, jason@nospam.com (Jason) said:
> >
> >> Those people that want to impress their friends and Co-workers
> >> with a Hybrid vehicle would prefer the Toyota Prius since
> >> it looks like a Hybrid.
> >
> >What does a Hybrid "look like"..? Why should it look any different than
> >an ordinary car..?
>
> Because how else will the poseurs driving them convay to everyone how
> 'enviromentally hip' they are (omitting that it'll take some 100,000
> miles to offset the pollution caused by the battery production,
> however many miles the disposal of the batteries will take, and how
> they could probably get similar performance and economy if the heavy
> electrical system was taken out anyway (acceleration = force/mass,
> reduce the mass, you need less force - same as a car with 4 boss
> hawg's in will have to work much harder than if there were 4 japanese
> schoolgirls, all in very light clothes in there)
>
> >
> >Honda's original Hybrid looked so odd, it's no wonder they couldn't sell
> >them.
>
> not so much spin on it, and no celbrity endorsements. Cars sell on
> coolness, nothing else. If its not cool, it won't sell. Thats why
> motorsports are so important to manufacturers. Rallying, touring cars,
> movies etc. all help sell the cars by making them cool. look at wht
> the Italian job did for the mini's. I get in one, I sure want to race
> around Turin. gone n 60 seconds helped make the mustang iconic. Jackie
> chan and mitsubishi... the list is endless.

flobert,
I agreed with every word. I could not have said it better.
Jason

--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.

 

"Gordon McGrew" wrote in message...
> expensive batteries and motor. I know a woman who owns an Accord
> Hybrid and claims it gets about 38 mpg on the highway.

A week ago Sunday I did an 850-mile trip with my '02 Accord. Fuel economy
worked out to 39.5 (measured by topping of the tank at fuel stops). I
probably could've gotten 40mpg (as I have before), but I was driving 75mph
with the AC on and had the car pretty heavily loaded.

Mpg is much worse in cold weather, something like 28mpg around town. Warm
weather, I average 34mpg around town.

BTW, it is a 4-cyl. 5-spd LX coupe.

 

"Gordon McGrew" wrote in message...
> expensive batteries and motor. I know a woman who owns an Accord
> Hybrid and claims it gets about 38 mpg on the highway.

A week ago Sunday I did an 850-mile trip with my '02 Accord. Fuel economy
worked out to 39.5 (measured by topping of the tank at fuel stops). I
probably could've gotten 40mpg (as I have before), but I was driving 75mph
with the AC on and had the car pretty heavily loaded.

Mpg is much worse in cold weather, something like 28mpg around town. Warm
weather, I average 34mpg around town.

BTW, it is a 4-cyl. 5-spd LX coupe.

 

Jason wrote:

>
> John,
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
> miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
> Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
> overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
> Do you agree?
> Jason
>

Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
the safety aspect concerns me. If fuel costs continue to rise we can
expect to see a run on these things. Folks who can afford it will keep
a little car for their commuter vehicle and perhaps something more
comfortable/capable for weekends and vacations.

In general I think that hybrid technology as currently implemented
results in too much cost and too much added complexity for too little
benefit.

A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!

John

 

Jason wrote:

>
> John,
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
> miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
> Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
> overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
> Do you agree?
> Jason
>

Yes, for a commuter vehicle something like the Fit makes sense, though
the safety aspect concerns me. If fuel costs continue to rise we can
expect to see a run on these things. Folks who can afford it will keep
a little car for their commuter vehicle and perhaps something more
comfortable/capable for weekends and vacations.

In general I think that hybrid technology as currently implemented
results in too much cost and too much added complexity for too little
benefit.

A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!

John

 

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
>>miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
>>Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
>>overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
>
>
> My wife's 97 and 2005 Civic EX coupes with 5 speeds were advertised
> to get 33 / 38 mpg. They both get about 25 / 35 mpg. But, she drives
> with that right pedal flat on the floor.
>
> Lynn
>
>

Obviously agressive driving styles will result in worse than EPA test
number economy.

John

 

Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
>>miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
>>Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
>>overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
>
>
> My wife's 97 and 2005 Civic EX coupes with 5 speeds were advertised
> to get 33 / 38 mpg. They both get about 25 / 35 mpg. But, she drives
> with that right pedal flat on the floor.
>
> Lynn
>
>

Obviously agressive driving styles will result in worse than EPA test
number economy.

John

 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nc71g.7292$JY5.4330@trnddc01...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>
>>
>> Toyota is selling all they can make, with most areas still putting
>> buyers on waiting lists.
>>
>> The problem is that no car has ever gotten the advertised mileage.
>
> Total BS. I consistently get fuel economy results with our conventional
> engine cars which are well within the bounds of the EPA test results. Our
> V-6 Accord fuel economy ranges from 24-30 mpg depending on the
> highway/local mix. Our Acura TSX is getting 25-32 mpg in our use. EPA
> test numbers on those cars are 21/30 for the Accord and 22/32 for the TSX.
> In my case, the correlation between EPS test and real world use is right
> on the money.
>
> Something is screwy with hybrids in particular in that their real world
> mileage is so different from the EPA test numbers.
>
> JOhn

Not at all. We get very close to the EPA numbers in town (upper 40s instead
of 52) and at 65 mph (same: upper 40s) on highways with our hybrid. At 75
mph the economy drops a lot. Most people report numbers in the 40s, and fuel
consumption in the 30s means either the driver is doing something wrong
(like leaving the defroster on) or there is a defect.

The problem is that the EPA tests are a benchmark for operation without
short trips, without gridlock and without running the heater or A/C on high.
It is not possible to add those losses and keep the same numbers the EPA
gets. The notion that the error is unique to hybrids is a recent one - the
complaint has been with all cars since the rating system started.

Mike

 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:nc71g.7292$JY5.4330@trnddc01...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>
>>
>> Toyota is selling all they can make, with most areas still putting
>> buyers on waiting lists.
>>
>> The problem is that no car has ever gotten the advertised mileage.
>
> Total BS. I consistently get fuel economy results with our conventional
> engine cars which are well within the bounds of the EPA test results. Our
> V-6 Accord fuel economy ranges from 24-30 mpg depending on the
> highway/local mix. Our Acura TSX is getting 25-32 mpg in our use. EPA
> test numbers on those cars are 21/30 for the Accord and 22/32 for the TSX.
> In my case, the correlation between EPS test and real world use is right
> on the money.
>
> Something is screwy with hybrids in particular in that their real world
> mileage is so different from the EPA test numbers.
>
> JOhn

Not at all. We get very close to the EPA numbers in town (upper 40s instead
of 52) and at 65 mph (same: upper 40s) on highways with our hybrid. At 75
mph the economy drops a lot. Most people report numbers in the 40s, and fuel
consumption in the 30s means either the driver is doing something wrong
(like leaving the defroster on) or there is a defect.

The problem is that the EPA tests are a benchmark for operation without
short trips, without gridlock and without running the heater or A/C on high.
It is not possible to add those losses and keep the same numbers the EPA
gets. The notion that the error is unique to hybrids is a recent one - the
complaint has been with all cars since the rating system started.

Mike

 

"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1804060818550001@66-52-22-49.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> John,
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
> miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
> Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
> overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
> Do you agree?
> Jason
>
OTOH, anybody who gets only 33/38 in a hybrid complains bitterly -
especially that city rating. If a Prius gets below 40 in any weather short
of snowy roads there is something wrong - our first generation has *never*
dropped below 40, in town or on the highway (round trip where applicable).
Combine that with the improved performance of hybrids, especially
off-the-line, plus the spectacularly smooth power delivery of Toyota's
system, and it's easy to see why cheap cars are cheap. I wouldn't buy an
economy car if I can afford better.

Mike

 

"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1804060818550001@66-52-22-49.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> John,
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
> miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
> Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
> overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
> Do you agree?
> Jason
>
OTOH, anybody who gets only 33/38 in a hybrid complains bitterly -
especially that city rating. If a Prius gets below 40 in any weather short
of snowy roads there is something wrong - our first generation has *never*
dropped below 40, in town or on the highway (round trip where applicable).
Combine that with the improved performance of hybrids, especially
off-the-line, plus the spectacularly smooth power delivery of Toyota's
system, and it's easy to see why cheap cars are cheap. I wouldn't buy an
economy car if I can afford better.

Mike

 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40e1g.2073$sh.1533@trnddc08...
> A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!
>
> John

There is certainly something to be said for turbo-diesels. My new work truck
is a Ford with the Cummins 6L TDi. It has shortcomings common to diesels and
most marked in TDs: it has to be driven gently when cold to protect the
engine, it is noisy and smoky (mostly smoky during warm-up), and even when
warm merging into traffic makes me wish I had four feet - one to hold the
accelerator down, one to let the clutch up, and two to do the Fred
Flintstone thing. But the advantages are more important. It gets right at
twice the fuel economy of the old gasser (at least on the highway... dunno
about in town), yielding twice the range with the same size tank - important
when crossing the largest indian reservation in the US at odd hours. On the
highway, with only a slight turbo lag, the power is phenomenal... as I would
expect with more than 20 lbs boost. And off-road it crawls along much better
than the gasser did, as long as I don't let the turbo come in.

Mike

 

"John Horner" <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:40e1g.2073$sh.1533@trnddc08...
> A small high tech turbo-diesel can get the job done better!
>
> John

There is certainly something to be said for turbo-diesels. My new work truck
is a Ford with the Cummins 6L TDi. It has shortcomings common to diesels and
most marked in TDs: it has to be driven gently when cold to protect the
engine, it is noisy and smoky (mostly smoky during warm-up), and even when
warm merging into traffic makes me wish I had four feet - one to hold the
accelerator down, one to let the clutch up, and two to do the Fred
Flintstone thing. But the advantages are more important. It gets right at
twice the fuel economy of the old gasser (at least on the highway... dunno
about in town), yielding twice the range with the same size tank - important
when crossing the largest indian reservation in the US at odd hours. On the
highway, with only a slight turbo lag, the power is phenomenal... as I would
expect with more than 20 lbs boost. And off-road it crawls along much better
than the gasser did, as long as I don't let the turbo come in.

Mike

 

My wife test drove the Accord and Civic hybrids and the Prius. She went
with the accord because she did not want to give up so many creature
comforts. The Toyota hybrid SUV gets mediocre gas mileage too at a high
sticker price. That fancy interior in the Acura will never pay for itself
either. Hybrid is just one more feature. If you pay for it in the Accord
you are rewarded with a little more power and better gas mileage.


"Jason" <jason@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:jason-1804060818550001@66-52-22-49.lsan.pw-dia.impulse.net...
> In article <k571g.7291$JY5.5544@trnddc01>, John Horner
> <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> IMO Honda completely missed the boat on this one by going for a
>> "performance hybrid". Nobody needs even higher performance than the V-6
>> Accord already offers, and the price of the Hybrid Accord is a show
>> stopper. Why pay the price on an Acura TL to get a Honda sedan?
>>
>> Hybrids should be about great fuel economy, and the Accord hybrid real
>> world economy is little better than the 4 cylinder Accord.
>>
>> IMO Honda would do much better selling a high economy 1.8 L turbocharged
>> version of the Accord instead of the silly V-6 hybrid. With the new
>> focus on fuel economy we are going to see more use of smaller engines
>> with turbochargers. Even Honda is about to get into the turbo act with
>> the new Acura RDX.
>>
>> John
>
> John,
> I agree with you. The new Honda Fit will get 33 mpg in the city and 38
> miles on the highway. It's my opinion that lots of people will buy the
> Honda Fit or Toyota Yaris (for about $15,000 per car) instead of
> overpriced Hybrids. The cost of a Toyata Prius is about $23,000 per car.
> Do you agree?
> Jason
>
> --
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> We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
> We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
>
>
>