On 01/05/2010 04:05 PM, JRStern wrote:
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:30:57 -0800, jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
>> pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
>> /want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
>> with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
>> to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.
>
> Did not know that.
>
> BMW goes that long, with conventional oil?

apparently. i don't know what their oil is - but i know that when it's
time to change, that stuff is pretty sour. and there's a strong buildup
of resin under the rocker cover. i do occasional work on a friend's
330i and my 189k 20yr old civic is cleaner under the rocker after nearly
20k on a single change of mobil 1 than the 330i after a total lifetime
30k miles and bmw oil changes. whatever they use, it's either massively
over-stressed or it's not as good as what i use.


> And even the first?
>
> Well, maybe they want you to wear things out!
>
>
>> [interestingly, if you look up oil analysis examples online, mile for
>> mile honda steel count - which correlates to wear rate and materials
>> quality - is of the order of ten times /less/ than that of bmw. oil
>> breakdown stability aside, that would imply honda being able to have a
>> longer service interval than bmw, not shorter.]
>
> Reminds me of an air pollution check on one of my old Hondas, required
> here in California every two years. Actual pollution line was barely
> off the zero, way way better than required. I guess that's why they
> started the "ULEV" labels and such, but I still felt like I deserved a
> medal, or a discount, or something, for driving such a clean car.
>
> Honda good.
>
> (of course, that doesn't really count towards the modern trendy
> "carbon footprint" issue, but that's another story)
>
> J.
>

carbon footprint is pretty much just how much gas you burn. smaller,
more efficient clean burning engines in smaller more aero cars means
lower gas consumption. the average honda may not be as good as a prius,
but it's a whole lot better than the average frod, chevy, chrysler, etc.

 

jim beam wrote:
> On 01/05/2010 04:05 PM, JRStern wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:30:57 -0800, jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
>>> pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
>>> /want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
>>> with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
>>> to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.

Like any other dealer, BMW dealers like to see you as often as possible
consistent with good customer satisfaction. The car business is what it
is no matter which manufacturer we're talking about. Every contact they
have with you gives them another opportunity to impress you with their
professionalism and good will, and possibly make a sale or a future
sale. The local BMW dealer has free car washes every Saturday, for
example, no matter how long you've owned the car you bought from them.

(My family owned a car dealership when I was growing up.)

>>
>> Did not know that.
>>
>> BMW goes that long, with conventional oil?

No. It's a Castrol synthetic in anything recent.

> apparently. i don't know what their oil is - but i know that when it's
> time to change, that stuff is pretty sour. and there's a strong buildup
> of resin under the rocker cover. i do occasional work on a friend's
> 330i and my 189k 20yr old civic is cleaner under the rocker after nearly
> 20k on a single change of mobil 1 than the 330i after a total lifetime
> 30k miles and bmw oil changes. whatever they use, it's either massively
> over-stressed or it's not as good as what i use.

The oil looks different both new and old than conventional oil.
However, at 30K miles, a 330i should have had 1-2 oil changes depending
on the service it's seen, and it should not have significant buildup
under the valve cover. Mine has no significant buildup at 88K, nor does
my wife's 323i at 107K.

>> And even the first?
<snip>

Yes. The first oil change on recent BMWs is likely to be at about 15K
miles. That's less than the interval you're using with Mobil 1 in your
Civic.

My Accord was my first "experiment" car, the one with which I started to
follow the manufacturer's service schedule rather than being more
aggressive and changing oil and filter every 3K. I did do the very
first oil change early just to get any crud left over from manufacturing
out, but since then I have changed it only when the service indicator
turns to red, which it does faithfully every 7,500 miles. Honda specs
regular 5W-30 oil, and that's what I use, along with the Honda filter.

Now, 19 years later at 218K, the car is falling (well, rusting) apart
around the drive train. The engine uses no noticeable oil between
changes, gas mileage remains good, and the engine seems as peppy now as
it was when new. Had I changed oil every 3K I'd have done 72 oil
changes by now rather than the 29 or so I've actually done, so at $25 or
so per change for oil and filter, I'm $1,075 to the good--in fact, the
money I have saved on unnecessary oil changes now exceeds the residual
value of the car (according to Kelly Blue Book's website)! And that's
changing the oil myself. Had I paid to have it done I'd have saved more
than double the car's current value.

In reasonably average service I see no concrete reason to be more
agressive than the manufacturer's recommendations with our Honda, BMWs,
garden tractor, etc.

--
JRE

 

On 01/06/2010 03:30 AM, JRE wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> On 01/05/2010 04:05 PM, JRStern wrote:
>>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:30:57 -0800, jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
>>>> pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
>>>> /want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
>>>> with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
>>>> to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.
>
> Like any other dealer, BMW dealers like to see you as often as possible
> consistent with good customer satisfaction. The car business is what it
> is no matter which manufacturer we're talking about. Every contact they
> have with you gives them another opportunity to impress you with their
> professionalism and good will, and possibly make a sale or a future
> sale. The local BMW dealer has free car washes every Saturday, for
> example, no matter how long you've owned the car you bought from them.
>
> (My family owned a car dealership when I was growing up.)

you're right, repeat business comes from the ability to cultivate and
maintain a professional relationship. however, when service costs are
borne by the dealer, not the client, they my be happy to bring you in
for coffee and donuts, but they are /not/ going to bring you in for oil
changes every 3k miles because it's losing them money.


>
>>>
>>> Did not know that.
>>>
>>> BMW goes that long, with conventional oil?
>
> No. It's a Castrol synthetic in anything recent.

i've read that is specified, but i have a hard time believing the
dealer's actually using it in my friend's car - evidence to the contrary
in fact.


>
>> apparently. i don't know what their oil is - but i know that when it's
>> time to change, that stuff is pretty sour. and there's a strong
>> buildup of resin under the rocker cover. i do occasional work on a
>> friend's 330i and my 189k 20yr old civic is cleaner under the rocker
>> after nearly 20k on a single change of mobil 1 than the 330i after a
>> total lifetime 30k miles and bmw oil changes. whatever they use, it's
>> either massively over-stressed or it's not as good as what i use.
>
> The oil looks different both new and old than conventional oil. However,
> at 30K miles, a 330i should have had 1-2 oil changes depending on the
> service it's seen, and it should not have significant buildup under the
> valve cover. Mine has no significant buildup at 88K, nor does my wife's
> 323i at 107K.

frankly, because of what i'd read, i was surprised.


>
>>> And even the first?
> <snip>
>
> Yes. The first oil change on recent BMWs is likely to be at about 15K
> miles. That's less than the interval you're using with Mobil 1 in your
> Civic.

yes, but analysis shows the bmw to be wearing faster.


>
> My Accord was my first "experiment" car, the one with which I started to
> follow the manufacturer's service schedule rather than being more
> aggressive and changing oil and filter every 3K. I did do the very first
> oil change early just to get any crud left over from manufacturing out,
> but since then I have changed it only when the service indicator turns
> to red, which it does faithfully every 7,500 miles. Honda specs regular
> 5W-30 oil, and that's what I use, along with the Honda filter.
>
> Now, 19 years later at 218K, the car is falling (well, rusting) apart
> around the drive train. The engine uses no noticeable oil between
> changes, gas mileage remains good, and the engine seems as peppy now as
> it was when new. Had I changed oil every 3K I'd have done 72 oil changes
> by now rather than the 29 or so I've actually done, so at $25 or so per
> change for oil and filter, I'm $1,075 to the good--in fact, the money I
> have saved on unnecessary oil changes now exceeds the residual value of
> the car (according to Kelly Blue Book's website)! And that's changing
> the oil myself. Had I paid to have it done I'd have saved more than
> double the car's current value.
>
> In reasonably average service I see no concrete reason to be more
> agressive than the manufacturer's recommendations with our Honda, BMWs,
> garden tractor, etc.
>

 

"JRE" <nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
news:hi1s8d$mls$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> jim beam wrote:
> Like any other dealer, BMW dealers like to see you as often as possible
> consistent with good customer satisfaction.

Yes, but they weren't generating any customer
satisfaction due to astronomical service costs,
they were losing sales to everything else on the market
based on bad service experiences based on cost,
that's why they went to service-included pricing.

J.

 

On 01/07/2010 09:56 AM, zzznot wrote:
> "JRE"<nothing@nowhere.invalid> wrote in message
> news:hi1s8d$mls$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> jim beam wrote:
>> Like any other dealer, BMW dealers like to see you as often as possible
>> consistent with good customer satisfaction.
>
> Yes, but they weren't generating any customer
> satisfaction due to astronomical service costs,
> they were losing sales to everything else on the market
> based on bad service experiences based on cost,
> that's why they went to service-included pricing.
>
> J.
>
>
>

"service-included pricing" which costs them hardly anything because at
15k per service, they hardly ever touch the car! 4 years or 50k miles -
that's three [max $50] oil changes.

and once your "included" service period is up, brakes suddenly are
kaput, and cost a freakin' fortune. they need new $200+ disks each time
you change the pads - if you use bmw pads anyway. [use akebono ceramics
and magically, disk wear goes away. strange that.]

 

Thus spake "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> :

>In article <26mqj5pe66brehseqtiah36j5l7pkkrpr5@4ax.com>,
> "Guy" <void@void.com> wrote:
>
>> >in that case, you should get rid of this vehicle and go buy a buick.
>> >buh-bye!
>> >
>>
>> I didn't mean the manual was wrong but wanted to know what
>> experience(s) work well with a new Honda. Maybe most don't follow the
>> manual???
>
>Or maybe most do.
>
>Your owner's manual says...what? about oil changes?
>
>Does it have a maintenance minder system?

When it says a maint is due, then it gets done. That means that at
least three of us do the manual.

I guess he doesn't thing the manuals are written for a reason. Perhaps
the part where it says "don't do this or you will be killed or
seriously injured" applies for him, either.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

 

Thus spake "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> :

>In article <GISdnc2cbrfHi6PWnZ2dnUVZ_sIAAAAA@speakeasy.net> ,
> jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> > Have fun with your shiny new $25,000 toy.
>>
>> this is the piece of psychology that always completely blows my mind -
>> the bit where people can spend a bunch of dough, then completely
>> disregard what they put it into. if they had a suitcase with $25,000 in
>> hundreds, would they toss it out of a moving car with the lid open and
>> watch the notes get blown away in the wind? of course not.
>
>Some would, and then you'd see a blog entry on The Consumerist about how
>Samsonite bags suck and they wouldn't even take the owner's phone call
>about how Samsonite owes him $25,000 because his bag didn't prevent the
>bills from leaving the opened suitcase.

Off to alt.humor.best-of-usenet with you.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

 

Thus spake News <News@Groups.Name> :

>jim beam wrote:
>> On 01/01/2010 08:32 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article<GISdnc2cbrfHi6PWnZ2dnUVZ_sIAAAAA@speakeasy .net>,
>>> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Have fun with your shiny new $25,000 toy.
>>>>
>>>> this is the piece of psychology that always completely blows my mind -
>>>> the bit where people can spend a bunch of dough, then completely
>>>> disregard what they put it into. if they had a suitcase with $25,000 in
>>>> hundreds, would they toss it out of a moving car with the lid open and
>>>> watch the notes get blown away in the wind? of course not.
>>>
>>> Some would, and then you'd see a blog entry on The Consumerist about how
>>> Samsonite bags suck and they wouldn't even take the owner's phone call
>>> about how Samsonite owes him $25,000 because his bag didn't prevent the
>>> bills from leaving the opened suitcase.
>>
>> doubtless, others would respond agreeing. especially if someone had the
>> temerity to point out that our blogger was in fact at fault, because we
>> should all stand about and hug and endorse stupidity, not actually try
>> to learn something.
>>
>>
>
>
>Try this on for size:
><http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=105876>

a) a bill of sale is practiclly worthless without some kind of
"authentication", ie the notary I used when I sold my Civic.

2) I think Apple would be covered by the same law as pawn shops and
auto dealers. If they accept something for which they have a
reasonable expectation that the presenter is the legal owner, they are
under no obligation to return it to the legitimate owner without
compensation. Bullshit law, yeah. In some states (such as Texas)
certain shops may be identified by police as "known" fences and this
doesn't apply. Trick is, you won't know unless you force the cops to
say so and the shop won't know unless you take them to court with the
above mentioned information. Which the cops don't want them to know
until the nail them big time, not for your iPhone 3G that only sold
for $99 back in July.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

 

Thus spake "Guy" <void@void.com> :


<major snippage>

>>bottom line dude - it's your car - you do what you want. but don't ask
>>advice if you don't want to hear it. and you have no business getting
>>offended if people have a negative reaction to you dismissing their
>>correct advice as of no consequence.
>
>
>You seem to have a high opinion of yourself. I also have experience
>tho I don't claim to know it all. Numbers are fine and I think the
>manual is a great "guide" and in the absence of real life experiences
>will use it but that's what I am seeking from others.... real life
>experiences. Yes, I do listen to people just like I'm listening to
>you.
>
>Maybe you haven't been around a long time on the net (???) but I
>recall reading elsewhere, some thought the manuals are over
>conservative and some even accused the manuals of trying to get people
>to bring their cars in for service more than needed to make money for
>that mfgr. So not knowing the truth, I was seeking other's advice
>besides reading the manual. And yes I will read/re-read the manual in
>parts. Perhaps you misunderstand my intentions????

Errh, you're suggesting doing your oil at 3500 miles and the manual
says to do it when the MM says so, which for most folks is around
5-7K. So, who's being overly conservative and who's tossing away
money?

Let's see: "I don't care what the manual says." So, as the others
have said, you are doing research to support an already developed
solution.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

 

Thus spake "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> :

>In article <dplsj5153smn7npsj0dp06uhpq0tqd76gb@4ax.com>,
> "Guy" <void@void.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
>> still no problems.
>
>hehehehe--reminds me of my 79 Civic. The oil system had a nifty
>self-changing feature. When the oil light flickered during hard right
>turns, it was time to add more oil.

Had friend with a 79 CRX (same as mine except for color) that didn't
self change, but it was capable of at least removing the oil very
quickly. I was amazed that Honda built the car with a 5 or so inch
drain plug right under the #3 piston. Oh, and that was also the
reminder that he needed to replace the rod and all the bearings.
--

- dillon I am not invalid

I love my country, It's my government I fear.

Hey, turnabout's fair play.

 

On 1/10/2010 8:43 PM, Dillon Pyron wrote:
>
> Errh, you're suggesting doing your oil at 3500 miles and the manual
> says to do it when the MM says so, which for most folks is around
> 5-7K. So, who's being overly conservative and who's tossing away
> money?
>
> Let's see: "I don't care what the manual says." So, as the others
> have said, you are doing research to support an already developed
> solution.

There is nothing wrong with frequent oil changes and grease (for those
vehicles that have grease fittings). It is the cheapest form of
maintenance available.

 

Dillon Pyron wrote:
> Thus spake "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> :
>
>> In article <dplsj5153smn7npsj0dp06uhpq0tqd76gb@4ax.com>,
>> "Guy" <void@void.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
>>> still no problems.
>> hehehehe--reminds me of my 79 Civic. The oil system had a nifty
>> self-changing feature. When the oil light flickered during hard right
>> turns, it was time to add more oil.
>
> Had friend with a 79 CRX (same as mine except for color) that didn't
> self change, but it was capable of at least removing the oil very
> quickly. I was amazed that Honda built the car with a 5 or so inch
> drain plug right under the #3 piston. Oh, and that was also the
> reminder that he needed to replace the rod and all the bearings.



'79 CRX???

JT

 

On Dec 31 2009, 8:41 pm, "Guy" <v...@void.com> wrote:
> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
> What is the proper way?
>
> I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
> mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
> filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.

I'll bet when you wrote this you had no idea you were lighting a
fuse.
Once you get by the pedantic nonsense you'll find that Honda engines
are well made and pretty much whatever oil change interval you choose
will be fine so long as it does not exceed the built-in maintenance
minder (which is the same as any other idiot light on the dash). If
you do your own oil changes and plan to keep the car a long while, you
may was well use synthetic, which can be had pretty cheaply from
WalMart.

You can use those tea-cup-sized Honda oil filters but if you find
another brand of oil filters as small as Honda's that would be news to
me. This will also set off the fuse but since I don't routiney check
this newsgroup I will remain blissfully unaware. I will probably rue
the day I did not follow my owner's manual to the letter and only got
250,000 miles out of my last car before I gave it to friends who are
still driving it around.

However, I did marvel at the treatise on "kill file," which I did not
read as it immediately invoked a "get a life" response.

YMMV

 

On Tue, 12 Jan 2010 15:39:33 -0800 (PST), ACAR <gmwohl@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Dec 31 2009, 8:41 pm, "Guy" <v...@void.com> wrote:
>> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>> What is the proper way?
>>
>> I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
>> mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
>> filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.
>
>I'll bet when you wrote this you had no idea you were lighting a
>fuse.

Boy, you are NOT kidding. I had no idea.


>Once you get by the pedantic nonsense you'll find that Honda engines
>are well made and pretty much whatever oil change interval you choose
>will be fine so long as it does not exceed the built-in maintenance
>minder (which is the same as any other idiot light on the dash). If
>you do your own oil changes and plan to keep the car a long while, you
>may was well use synthetic, which can be had pretty cheaply from
>WalMart.
>
>You can use those tea-cup-sized Honda oil filters but if you find
>another brand of oil filters as small as Honda's that would be news to
>me. This will also set off the fuse but since I don't routiney check
>this newsgroup I will remain blissfully unaware. I will probably rue
>the day I did not follow my owner's manual to the letter and only got
>250,000 miles out of my last car before I gave it to friends who are
>still driving it around.
>
>However, I did marvel at the treatise on "kill file," which I did not
>read as it immediately invoked a "get a life" response.
>
>YMMV


Thank you ACAR for the tips.

 

On 01/10/10 19:48, Brian Smith wrote:
> On 1/10/2010 8:43 PM, Dillon Pyron wrote:
>>
>> Errh, you're suggesting doing your oil at 3500 miles and the manual
>> says to do it when the MM says so, which for most folks is around
>> 5-7K. So, who's being overly conservative and who's tossing away
>> money?
>>
>> Let's see: "I don't care what the manual says." So, as the others
>> have said, you are doing research to support an already developed
>> solution.
>
> There is nothing wrong with frequent oil changes and grease (for those
> vehicles that have grease fittings). It is the cheapest form of
> maintenance available.

Really? What about the wasted oil which is still perfectly usable as an
engine lubricant? Time? Money?

So if I were really conservative regarding oil changes, I'd do it weekly
or even daily. Anything wrong with that?

You're either not keeping posted on modern engine lubrication or you
reject info newer than "every 3,000 miles".

<not a flame, BTW>