In article <Xns9CF36B32535A6tegger@208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:

> If you're willing to trust Honda enough to purchase a piece of their
> complex, precision machinery, but regard as suspect Honda's official word
> on how to take care of it, preferring the opinions of anonymous, uneducated
> Usenet posters instead, you're asking for trouble.
>
> Having said that, I am of the opinion that you can never change your oil
> too often. I draw a distinction, however, between replacement of the
> factory fill and subsequent oil changes.

I agree. Oil is cheap, which makes it cheap insurance. If you change
it twice as often as Honda dictates, you've spent an extra $300 over
100,000 miles.

And if you got one of the engines that was put together on a bad day,
that may make the difference between an engine swap and not.

 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:Bbqdnf6d8-IJhKPWnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@speakeasy.net:

> On 01/01/2010 07:33 AM, Tegger wrote:

>>
>> Having said that, I am of the opinion that you can never change your
>> oil too often.
>
> with respect, that opinion is underinformed. from
> http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm



This is an extremely interesting document, so thanks for the link. However,
it dates from 1999.

The last paragraph is significant, in that the authors note their findings
have not yet been fleshed-out or verified by additional testing, and are
based on limited data.

Quite a lot may have happened in the succeeding ten years since that doc
was written, but there's nothing new on the SwRI site.


>
> we read: "Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some
> wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil."


And this: "...many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance
their effectiveness".

I'm really curious what real-world lessons those statements and test
results have for us car owners. They have a contact page, I see. Next week
I'll submit a few questions to them in the hopes of getting an answer.

Stay tuned...



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

In article <Xns9CF36B32535A6tegger@208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:

> It has not been established with 100% certainty that the factory fill is
> indeed ordinary off-the-shelf motor oil. It might be slightly different
> from off-the-shelf, but nobody really knows. For that reason I would leave
> the factory fill in until the Minder says to replace it. After that, change
> it /more/ often than required if you like. And always use an OEM filter.

And for God's sake, people, don't think you know what you're doing--or
that your father knew what he was doing--and continue to use the same
crush washer on the drain plug. Use a new one every time.

Even better if you follow the service manual and tighten the drain plug
with a torque wrench to the specified torque. I'm happy to know that my
DEALERSHIP mechanic, a true professional technician, does that every
time. (Yeah, that's right--I request this guy for everything, even oil
changes.)

Going back to what jim and Tegger said, Honda says to use a new crush
washer for a reason. Is that five cents REALLY going to break you? If
so, you need to reconsider your car purchase.

 

In article <Bbqdnf6d8-IJhKPWnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> provided you're not using cheap garbage oil with a poor additive package
> or a poor base that's breaking down

but hey, that oil deal at Big Lots was so incredible, I couldn't not buy
ten cases. What does "SB" mean, anyway?

;-)

 

In article <Bbqdnf6d8-IJhKPWnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> there is no point changing your oil
> more frequently than factory spec. especially with a maintenance
> minder. better yet, get oil analysis done - with analysis and a quality
> full synthetic, i'm looking at 20k miles between changes, based on my
> driving pattern.

Yes, that's another cheap insurance way to do it. Blackstone Labs
tested my 92 Civic Si at 120K miles, and they declared the engine so
clean you could sip soup from it. They recommended increasing the
interval dramatically.

Of course, that was with a 3000 mile oil change interval I'd been doing
over its life.

 

On 01/01/2010 08:37 AM, Tegger wrote:
> jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:Bbqdnf6d8-IJhKPWnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@speakeasy.net:
>
>> On 01/01/2010 07:33 AM, Tegger wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Having said that, I am of the opinion that you can never change your
>>> oil too often.
>>
>> with respect, that opinion is underinformed. from
>> http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
>
>
>
> This is an extremely interesting document, so thanks for the link. However,
> it dates from 1999.
>
> The last paragraph is significant, in that the authors note their findings
> have not yet been fleshed-out or verified by additional testing, and are
> based on limited data.
>
> Quite a lot may have happened in the succeeding ten years since that doc
> was written, but there's nothing new on the SwRI site.

1999 or not, that doesn't change the physics. think of it like this:
solid ice can rough you up pretty badly. water offers almost no
lubrication worth worrying about. but ice slurry, where the smaller
particles are free to slide among themselves, can be a fantastic remover
of friction.


>
>
>>
>> we read: "Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some
>> wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil."
>
>
> And this: "...many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance
> their effectiveness".

that means you leave to oil /in/ for it to reach maximum effectiveness!
to be clear though - i would not recommend it for cheap oil - that
stuff breaks down, loses viscosity and sludges up your engine. but i
wouldn't use cheap oil - period. breakdown, poor additive packages,
lousy seal conditioning - just stay away.


>
> I'm really curious what real-world lessons those statements and test
> results have for us car owners. They have a contact page, I see. Next week
> I'll submit a few questions to them in the hopes of getting an answer.
>
> Stay tuned...

that would be great - thank you!

 

Waiving the right to remain silent, "Guy" <void@void.com> said:

> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
> What is the proper way?

RTFM.

--
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail

"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
with all the privileges that this entails."

 

On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:05:17 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <mgurj5leh45saqfk9jdeon1uropu5kjq19@4ax.com>,
> "Guy" <void@void.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course I'll read / re-read parts of the manual. I
>> remember the sales person mentioning something about a reminder
>> light??
>
>wow.
>
>Spend $25,000 and you don't read the manual first thing, and you don't
>pay attention when the guy shows you details?
>
>wow.

I guess you haven't bought a new vehicle lately. If you did, you
might have more important things on your mind at the time of purchase
then the maintenance minder. Besides it's in the manual to read,
right? Then no big deal as I see it.

>
>Yes, it's called Maintenance Minder. It will show a letter/number
>combination when maintenance is due, and you look in the owner's manual
>(yes, there's that nasty word again) to find out what services are
>associated with that combination.
>
>What you DON'T do is blindly walk into a dealer and tell them "I have B3
>due" and let the dealer define what should be done. That's just license
>to steal. Do what the owner's manual says.

I will.
>
>And ignore the maintenance minder at your own risk, frankly--be that
>mechanical risk to the car, or financial risk to your wallet.

I do on my Accord and no problem. I do oil changes religiously at
3500 miles despite what the maintenance light says on my accord. So
far it's runs well. Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
still no problems. I don't recommend abusing them but I don't think
you need to follow the manual to the T either. I babied a Chevy I
bought new once and it was a lemon from day one. I think the manual
is a great guide but not a bible as some people make it out to be
here. I think judgement is always a good thing. I was hoping
people here had some but apparently not. I guess they just follow
the manual blindly without judgement. Engineers are good but they
aren't gods.

 

On 2010-01-01, Elmo P. Shagnasty <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
> In article <Xns9CF36B32535A6tegger@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:
>
>> It has not been established with 100% certainty that the factory fill is
>> indeed ordinary off-the-shelf motor oil. It might be slightly different
>> from off-the-shelf, but nobody really knows. For that reason I would leave
>> the factory fill in until the Minder says to replace it. After that, change
>> it /more/ often than required if you like. And always use an OEM filter.
>
> And for God's sake, people, don't think you know what you're doing--or
> that your father knew what he was doing--and continue to use the same
> crush washer on the drain plug. Use a new one every time.
>
> Even better if you follow the service manual and tighten the drain plug
> with a torque wrench to the specified torque. I'm happy to know that my
> DEALERSHIP mechanic, a true professional technician, does that every
> time. (Yeah, that's right--I request this guy for everything, even oil
> changes.)
>
> Going back to what jim and Tegger said, Honda says to use a new crush
> washer for a reason. Is that five cents REALLY going to break you? If
> so, you need to reconsider your car purchase.

Yup. It's the main reason that I get my oil changes done at the local
Delta Sonic car wash chain (they added oil-change and other
maintenance services at several locations). MANY chains will do
things like ignoring the recommended oil, use inferior filters, and
never change the crush washer. This place does better service for oil
changes than my closest dealership, so I stick with them. The price
is the same, but the service is better.

It makes sense to be informed. Talk to the technician doing the work
before and after. Make sure they're not cutting corners...

--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

 

On 01/01/2010 12:25 PM, Guy wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:05:17 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> In article<mgurj5leh45saqfk9jdeon1uropu5kjq19@4ax.com >,
>> "Guy"<void@void.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course I'll read / re-read parts of the manual. I
>>> remember the sales person mentioning something about a reminder
>>> light??
>>
>> wow.
>>
>> Spend $25,000 and you don't read the manual first thing, and you don't
>> pay attention when the guy shows you details?
>>
>> wow.
>
> I guess you haven't bought a new vehicle lately. If you did, you
> might have more important things on your mind at the time of purchase
> then the maintenance minder. Besides it's in the manual to read,
> right? Then no big deal as I see it.
>
>>
>> Yes, it's called Maintenance Minder. It will show a letter/number
>> combination when maintenance is due, and you look in the owner's manual
>> (yes, there's that nasty word again) to find out what services are
>> associated with that combination.
>>
>> What you DON'T do is blindly walk into a dealer and tell them "I have B3
>> due" and let the dealer define what should be done. That's just license
>> to steal. Do what the owner's manual says.
>
> I will.
>>
>> And ignore the maintenance minder at your own risk, frankly--be that
>> mechanical risk to the car, or financial risk to your wallet.
>
> I do on my Accord and no problem. I do oil changes religiously at
> 3500 miles despite what the maintenance light says on my accord. So
> far it's runs well. Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
> still no problems. I don't recommend abusing them but I don't think
> you need to follow the manual to the T either. I babied a Chevy I
> bought new once and it was a lemon from day one. I think the manual
> is a great guide but not a bible as some people make it out to be
> here. I think judgement is always a good thing.

so, you're going to do analysis and get some numbers on which to base
your judgment?


> I was hoping
> people here had some but apparently not.

some people here /do/ have numbers. and experience. but you don't seem
to think that matters.


> I guess they just follow
> the manual blindly without judgement. Engineers are good but they
> aren't gods.

as opposed to a guy with no numbers and no experience? that's retarded.

bottom line dude - it's your car - you do what you want. but don't ask
advice if you don't want to hear it. and you have no business getting
offended if people have a negative reaction to you dismissing their
correct advice as of no consequence.

 

On 01/01/2010 12:38 PM, Joe wrote:
> On 2010-01-01, Elmo P. Shagnasty<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>> In article<Xns9CF36B32535A6tegger@208.90.168.18>,
>> Tegger<invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>
>>> It has not been established with 100% certainty that the factory fill is
>>> indeed ordinary off-the-shelf motor oil. It might be slightly different
>>> from off-the-shelf, but nobody really knows. For that reason I would leave
>>> the factory fill in until the Minder says to replace it. After that, change
>>> it /more/ often than required if you like. And always use an OEM filter.
>>
>> And for God's sake, people, don't think you know what you're doing--or
>> that your father knew what he was doing--and continue to use the same
>> crush washer on the drain plug. Use a new one every time.
>>
>> Even better if you follow the service manual and tighten the drain plug
>> with a torque wrench to the specified torque. I'm happy to know that my
>> DEALERSHIP mechanic, a true professional technician, does that every
>> time. (Yeah, that's right--I request this guy for everything, even oil
>> changes.)
>>
>> Going back to what jim and Tegger said, Honda says to use a new crush
>> washer for a reason. Is that five cents REALLY going to break you? If
>> so, you need to reconsider your car purchase.
>
> Yup. It's the main reason that I get my oil changes done at the local
> Delta Sonic car wash chain (they added oil-change and other
> maintenance services at several locations). MANY chains will do
> things like ignoring the recommended oil, use inferior filters, and
> never change the crush washer. This place does better service for oil
> changes than my closest dealership, so I stick with them. The price
> is the same, but the service is better.
>
> It makes sense to be informed. Talk to the technician doing the work
> before and after. Make sure they're not cutting corners...
>

while the dealer is the safest long term bet, i have to say, they're not
infallible. last time i paid someone to change my oil, it was san
francisco honda - they had a special offer and i was in a hurry. they
munged it pretty bad - they forgot to check the old oil filter seal
wasn't still stuck to the block, which of course it was. when the new
filter went on, that was /two/ seals in place, and naturally, one burst
as soon as oil pressure built. oil sprayed all over the engine
compartment, contaminated all my belts, got onto the radiator so it
clogged with dust, and got all over the exhaust ready to leave a smoke
trail for the next couple of miles. complete fiasco.

so, if you're not doing this stuff yourself, take the elmo approach -
find someone competent, experienced, and who knows their business. then
stick with them.

 

On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:46:28 -0800, jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>On 01/01/2010 12:25 PM, Guy wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:05:17 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article<mgurj5leh45saqfk9jdeon1uropu5kjq19@4ax.com >,
>>> "Guy"<void@void.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course I'll read / re-read parts of the manual. I
>>>> remember the sales person mentioning something about a reminder
>>>> light??
>>>
>>> wow.
>>>
>>> Spend $25,000 and you don't read the manual first thing, and you don't
>>> pay attention when the guy shows you details?
>>>
>>> wow.
>>
>> I guess you haven't bought a new vehicle lately. If you did, you
>> might have more important things on your mind at the time of purchase
>> then the maintenance minder. Besides it's in the manual to read,
>> right? Then no big deal as I see it.
>>
>>>
>>> Yes, it's called Maintenance Minder. It will show a letter/number
>>> combination when maintenance is due, and you look in the owner's manual
>>> (yes, there's that nasty word again) to find out what services are
>>> associated with that combination.
>>>
>>> What you DON'T do is blindly walk into a dealer and tell them "I have B3
>>> due" and let the dealer define what should be done. That's just license
>>> to steal. Do what the owner's manual says.
>>
>> I will.
>>>
>>> And ignore the maintenance minder at your own risk, frankly--be that
>>> mechanical risk to the car, or financial risk to your wallet.
>>
>> I do on my Accord and no problem. I do oil changes religiously at
>> 3500 miles despite what the maintenance light says on my accord. So
>> far it's runs well. Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
>> still no problems. I don't recommend abusing them but I don't think
>> you need to follow the manual to the T either. I babied a Chevy I
>> bought new once and it was a lemon from day one. I think the manual
>> is a great guide but not a bible as some people make it out to be
>> here. I think judgement is always a good thing.
>
>so, you're going to do analysis and get some numbers on which to base
>your judgment?
>
>
>> I was hoping
>> people here had some but apparently not.
>
>some people here /do/ have numbers. and experience. but you don't seem
>to think that matters.
>
>
>> I guess they just follow
>> the manual blindly without judgement. Engineers are good but they
>> aren't gods.
>
>as opposed to a guy with no numbers and no experience? that's retarded.
>
>bottom line dude - it's your car - you do what you want. but don't ask
>advice if you don't want to hear it. and you have no business getting
>offended if people have a negative reaction to you dismissing their
>correct advice as of no consequence.


You seem to have a high opinion of yourself. I also have experience
tho I don't claim to know it all. Numbers are fine and I think the
manual is a great "guide" and in the absence of real life experiences
will use it but that's what I am seeking from others.... real life
experiences. Yes, I do listen to people just like I'm listening to
you.

Maybe you haven't been around a long time on the net (???) but I
recall reading elsewhere, some thought the manuals are over
conservative and some even accused the manuals of trying to get people
to bring their cars in for service more than needed to make money for
that mfgr. So not knowing the truth, I was seeking other's advice
besides reading the manual. And yes I will read/re-read the manual in
parts. Perhaps you misunderstand my intentions????

 

jim beam <me@privacy.net> wrote in
news:rLydnU8pArz__KPWnZ2dnUVZ_hmdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> On 01/01/2010 12:38 PM, Joe wrote:

>>
>> It makes sense to be informed. Talk to the technician doing the work
>> before and after. Make sure they're not cutting corners...
>>
>
> while the dealer is the safest long term bet, i have to say, they're
> not infallible.



Ain't that the truth.

My own dealer got three years out of the original oil pan. Then they
managed to strip the plug. The monkeys were severely overtightening the
plug, probably by using a combo wrench and tightening it by hanging from
it, as monkeys do.

I'm still running with the replacement pan, sixteen years later. The plug
is not stripped.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

On 01/01/2010 01:40 PM, Guy wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:46:28 -0800, jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> On 01/01/2010 12:25 PM, Guy wrote:
>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:05:17 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article<mgurj5leh45saqfk9jdeon1uropu5kjq19@4ax.com >,
>>>> "Guy"<void@void.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Of course I'll read / re-read parts of the manual. I
>>>>> remember the sales person mentioning something about a reminder
>>>>> light??
>>>>
>>>> wow.
>>>>
>>>> Spend $25,000 and you don't read the manual first thing, and you don't
>>>> pay attention when the guy shows you details?
>>>>
>>>> wow.
>>>
>>> I guess you haven't bought a new vehicle lately. If you did, you
>>> might have more important things on your mind at the time of purchase
>>> then the maintenance minder. Besides it's in the manual to read,
>>> right? Then no big deal as I see it.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, it's called Maintenance Minder. It will show a letter/number
>>>> combination when maintenance is due, and you look in the owner's manual
>>>> (yes, there's that nasty word again) to find out what services are
>>>> associated with that combination.
>>>>
>>>> What you DON'T do is blindly walk into a dealer and tell them "I have B3
>>>> due" and let the dealer define what should be done. That's just license
>>>> to steal. Do what the owner's manual says.
>>>
>>> I will.
>>>>
>>>> And ignore the maintenance minder at your own risk, frankly--be that
>>>> mechanical risk to the car, or financial risk to your wallet.
>>>
>>> I do on my Accord and no problem. I do oil changes religiously at
>>> 3500 miles despite what the maintenance light says on my accord. So
>>> far it's runs well. Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
>>> still no problems. I don't recommend abusing them but I don't think
>>> you need to follow the manual to the T either. I babied a Chevy I
>>> bought new once and it was a lemon from day one. I think the manual
>>> is a great guide but not a bible as some people make it out to be
>>> here. I think judgement is always a good thing.
>>
>> so, you're going to do analysis and get some numbers on which to base
>> your judgment?
>>
>>
>>> I was hoping
>>> people here had some but apparently not.
>>
>> some people here /do/ have numbers. and experience. but you don't seem
>> to think that matters.
>>
>>
>>> I guess they just follow
>>> the manual blindly without judgement. Engineers are good but they
>>> aren't gods.
>>
>> as opposed to a guy with no numbers and no experience? that's retarded.
>>
>> bottom line dude - it's your car - you do what you want. but don't ask
>> advice if you don't want to hear it. and you have no business getting
>> offended if people have a negative reaction to you dismissing their
>> correct advice as of no consequence.
>
>
> You seem to have a high opinion of yourself.

because i had the temerity to point the illogicality of your argument?
i think you're confused about what "high opinion" means.


> I also have experience
> tho I don't claim to know it all. Numbers are fine

but you intend to ignore them anyway!


> and I think the
> manual is a great "guide" and in the absence of real life experiences
> will use it but that's what I am seeking from others.... real life
> experiences.

right.

now, to test your logical reasoning abilities, if you baby a chevy but
it's still a piece of s., and you baby a honda which works perfectly,
what does that tell you about the efficacy of your treatment program?
how does that contrast with the effect of design, build quality and the
respective manufacturers?


> Yes, I do listen to people just like I'm listening to
> you.

yeah right!


>
> Maybe you haven't been around a long time on the net (???) but I
> recall reading elsewhere, some thought the manuals are over
> conservative and some even accused the manuals of trying to get people
> to bring their cars in for service more than needed to make money for
> that mfgr.

so, yet again, you want to ignore the contents of the owner manual.


> So not knowing the truth,

dude, that's your weakest argument yet. the "truth" in in the owners
manual. you just spent $25k on one - remember?


> I was seeking other's advice
> besides reading the manual.

why? you don't know for sure the qualifications of a single person
here. unlike the manufacturer of course.


> And yes I will read/re-read the manual in
> parts. Perhaps you misunderstand my intentions????

well, the written evidence of your intentions is that you're hell-bent
on ignoring what anyone tells you unless it agrees with what you think
you already know. furthermore, there is no evidence that you're
prepared to learn anything new. unless you don't mean what you wrote!

 

On 01/01/2010 03:50 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 01/01/2010 01:40 PM, Guy wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 12:46:28 -0800, jim beam<me@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/01/2010 12:25 PM, Guy wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 10:05:17 -0500, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>>>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In article<mgurj5leh45saqfk9jdeon1uropu5kjq19@4ax.com >,
>>>>> "Guy"<void@void.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course I'll read / re-read parts of the manual. I
>>>>>> remember the sales person mentioning something about a reminder
>>>>>> light??
>>>>>
>>>>> wow.
>>>>>
>>>>> Spend $25,000 and you don't read the manual first thing, and you don't
>>>>> pay attention when the guy shows you details?
>>>>>
>>>>> wow.
>>>>
>>>> I guess you haven't bought a new vehicle lately. If you did, you
>>>> might have more important things on your mind at the time of purchase
>>>> then the maintenance minder. Besides it's in the manual to read,
>>>> right? Then no big deal as I see it.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, it's called Maintenance Minder. It will show a letter/number
>>>>> combination when maintenance is due, and you look in the owner's
>>>>> manual
>>>>> (yes, there's that nasty word again) to find out what services are
>>>>> associated with that combination.
>>>>>
>>>>> What you DON'T do is blindly walk into a dealer and tell them "I
>>>>> have B3
>>>>> due" and let the dealer define what should be done. That's just
>>>>> license
>>>>> to steal. Do what the owner's manual says.
>>>>
>>>> I will.
>>>>>
>>>>> And ignore the maintenance minder at your own risk, frankly--be that
>>>>> mechanical risk to the car, or financial risk to your wallet.
>>>>
>>>> I do on my Accord and no problem. I do oil changes religiously at
>>>> 3500 miles despite what the maintenance light says on my accord. So
>>>> far it's runs well. Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
>>>> still no problems. I don't recommend abusing them but I don't think
>>>> you need to follow the manual to the T either. I babied a Chevy I
>>>> bought new once and it was a lemon from day one. I think the manual
>>>> is a great guide but not a bible as some people make it out to be
>>>> here. I think judgement is always a good thing.
>>>
>>> so, you're going to do analysis and get some numbers on which to base
>>> your judgment?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I was hoping
>>>> people here had some but apparently not.
>>>
>>> some people here /do/ have numbers. and experience. but you don't seem
>>> to think that matters.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I guess they just follow
>>>> the manual blindly without judgement. Engineers are good but they
>>>> aren't gods.
>>>
>>> as opposed to a guy with no numbers and no experience? that's retarded.
>>>
>>> bottom line dude - it's your car - you do what you want. but don't ask
>>> advice if you don't want to hear it. and you have no business getting
>>> offended if people have a negative reaction to you dismissing their
>>> correct advice as of no consequence.
>>
>>
>> You seem to have a high opinion of yourself.
>
> because i had the temerity to point the illogicality of your argument? i
> think you're confused about what "high opinion" means.
>
>
>> I also have experience
>> tho I don't claim to know it all. Numbers are fine
>
> but you intend to ignore them anyway!
>
>
>> and I think the
>> manual is a great "guide" and in the absence of real life experiences
>> will use it but that's what I am seeking from others.... real life
>> experiences.
>
> right.
>
> now, to test your logical reasoning abilities, if you baby a chevy but
> it's still a piece of s., and you baby a honda which works perfectly,
> what does that tell you about the efficacy of your treatment program?
> how does that contrast with the effect of design, build quality and the
> respective manufacturers?
>
>
> > Yes, I do listen to people just like I'm listening to
>> you.
>
> yeah right!
>
>
>>
>> Maybe you haven't been around a long time on the net (???) but I
>> recall reading elsewhere, some thought the manuals are over
>> conservative and some even accused the manuals of trying to get people
>> to bring their cars in for service more than needed to make money for
>> that mfgr.
>
> so, yet again, you want to ignore the contents of the owner manual.
>
>
>> So not knowing the truth,
>
> dude, that's your weakest argument yet. the "truth" in in the owners
> manual. you just spent $25k on one - remember?
>
>
>> I was seeking other's advice
>> besides reading the manual.
>
> why? you don't know for sure the qualifications of a single person here.
> unlike the manufacturer of course.
>
>
>> And yes I will read/re-read the manual in
>> parts. Perhaps you misunderstand my intentions????
>
> well, the written evidence of your intentions is that you're hell-bent
> on ignoring what anyone tells you unless it agrees with what you think
> you already know. furthermore, there is no evidence that you're prepared
> to learn anything new. unless you don't mean what you wrote!
>

i can't resist posting this - courtesy of "androcles" over on
sci.materials. i post it not for strict relevance, but the combination
of partial relevance and timing which i find to be irresistible.

***

"Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated;
you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive,
unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic
subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising
for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George
Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination
or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.

Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because
this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are
left to decide which is most applicable to you.

There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically
admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would
wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill-
filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value
as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the
dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the
same spot and repeat the process eternally.

This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing
that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry
or crackpot theories without challenge.

You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The
kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I
purchase a new computer or hard drive.
Update: the last clearance was 25/12/09. Some individuals have been
restored to the list.

I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose
of this message is to encourage others to kill-file wits like you.

I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't,
damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and off."

***