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Re: my civic and its timing belt
I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully
bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope. I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one? I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE FOR A NEW NUT? Regards Frank On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the >knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric >(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is less >than 500, so something is incomplete.... > >A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd >choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2 >inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose >up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool. > >In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it is >a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to the >touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, too. >I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that. > >I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they fit >that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would >probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a jackstand. > >I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry. > >Mike > >"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message >news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost.t alkaboutautos.com... >>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and >> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker >> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank >> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have >> just broken some tools. >> >> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too >> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do >> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an >> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get >> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning. >> >> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at >> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big >> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the >> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I >> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose, >> not a 3/8 like we all use. >> >> t >> > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
On 11/10/04 2:04 PM, in article
bbc9026d34930c13f76cc187d45e1425@loc...o utautos.com, "disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote: > Interesting how the show to torque the crank pulley bolt in the > shop manual (honda factory manual). They say to seat the bolt at 14 > ft-lbs, > then mark it and the washer with a marker at 12 o clock. Then turn it > until it is at 3 o clock. It would be kinda hard I'm thinking, > since the crankshaft will turn a little when you are > torquing it, but if you could use the embossing marks as > a reference, it might work. > > t > Are you sure you are looking at the right bolt? My Factory manual says torque to 180 lb-ft. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
On 11/10/04 2:04 PM, in article
bbc9026d34930c13f76cc187d45e1425@loc...o utautos.com, "disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote: > Interesting how the show to torque the crank pulley bolt in the > shop manual (honda factory manual). They say to seat the bolt at 14 > ft-lbs, > then mark it and the washer with a marker at 12 o clock. Then turn it > until it is at 3 o clock. It would be kinda hard I'm thinking, > since the crankshaft will turn a little when you are > torquing it, but if you could use the embossing marks as > a reference, it might work. > > t > Are you sure you are looking at the right bolt? My Factory manual says torque to 180 lb-ft. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
The bolt is a pretty stout one. It has to be, considering the waling on them
we are doing without them moving! But if the head breaks off, there is the question of what it would take to remove the remains from inside the crankshaft. I have heard speculation that the threads are loc-tited, but I doubt it. They are just beastly tight. It would be a real risk to commit to removing the bolt body without damaging the crank threads. Today I got a regulator and guage to put at the impact wrench. I haven't tried it on the bolt yet, but the guage indicates I get 20 psi drop through the 3/8 inch hose when I put 90 lbs on the hose at the tank and run the impact driver no-load. Now I can run the hose at 120-140 psi and regulate it to 90 at the tool. Another piece of the puzzle is the restraint of the pulley. I still expect to just use the gearbox and brakes to backstop the impact driver. Mike <aaa> wrote in message news:mub5p01bblo6qj32cjuki455u2453g4vqk@4ax.com... >I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully > bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope. > > I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the > pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one? > > I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE > FOR A NEW NUT? > > > > Regards > Frank > > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee" > <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: > >>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the >>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric >>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is >>less >>than 500, so something is incomplete.... >> >>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd >>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2 >>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose >>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool. >> >>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it >>is >>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to >>the >>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, >>too. >>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that. >> >>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they >>fit >>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would >>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a >>jackstand. >> >>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry. >> >>Mike >> >>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message >>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost. talkaboutautos.com... >>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and >>> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker >>> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank >>> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have >>> just broken some tools. >>> >>> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too >>> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do >>> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an >>> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get >>> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning. >>> >>> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at >>> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big >>> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the >>> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I >>> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose, >>> not a 3/8 like we all use. >>> >>> t >>> >> > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
The bolt is a pretty stout one. It has to be, considering the waling on them
we are doing without them moving! But if the head breaks off, there is the question of what it would take to remove the remains from inside the crankshaft. I have heard speculation that the threads are loc-tited, but I doubt it. They are just beastly tight. It would be a real risk to commit to removing the bolt body without damaging the crank threads. Today I got a regulator and guage to put at the impact wrench. I haven't tried it on the bolt yet, but the guage indicates I get 20 psi drop through the 3/8 inch hose when I put 90 lbs on the hose at the tank and run the impact driver no-load. Now I can run the hose at 120-140 psi and regulate it to 90 at the tool. Another piece of the puzzle is the restraint of the pulley. I still expect to just use the gearbox and brakes to backstop the impact driver. Mike <aaa> wrote in message news:mub5p01bblo6qj32cjuki455u2453g4vqk@4ax.com... >I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully > bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope. > > I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the > pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one? > > I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE > FOR A NEW NUT? > > > > Regards > Frank > > On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee" > <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: > >>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the >>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric >>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is >>less >>than 500, so something is incomplete.... >> >>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd >>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2 >>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose >>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool. >> >>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it >>is >>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to >>the >>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, >>too. >>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that. >> >>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they >>fit >>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would >>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a >>jackstand. >> >>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry. >> >>Mike >> >>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message >>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost. talkaboutautos.com... >>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and >>> used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker >>> bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank >>> immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have >>> just broken some tools. >>> >>> But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too >>> much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do >>> the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an >>> impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get >>> really hot, even if it wasn't spinning. >>> >>> Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at >>> least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big >>> difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the >>> size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I >>> took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose, >>> not a 3/8 like we all use. >>> >>> t >>> >> > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Michael Pardee wrote:
> The bolt is a pretty stout one. It has to be, considering the waling on them > we are doing without them moving! But if the head breaks off, there is the > question of what it would take to remove the remains from inside the > crankshaft. I have heard speculation that the threads are loc-tited, but I > doubt it. They are just beastly tight. It would be a real risk to commit to > removing the bolt body without damaging the crank threads. > > Today I got a regulator and guage to put at the impact wrench. I haven't > tried it on the bolt yet, but the guage indicates I get 20 psi drop through > the 3/8 inch hose when I put 90 lbs on the hose at the tank and run the > impact driver no-load. Now I can run the hose at 120-140 psi and regulate it > to 90 at the tool. > > Another piece of the puzzle is the restraint of the pulley. I still expect > to just use the gearbox and brakes to backstop the impact driver. > > Mike > > <aaa> wrote in message news:mub5p01bblo6qj32cjuki455u2453g4vqk@4ax.com... > >>I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully >>bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope. >> >>I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the >>pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one? >> >>I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE >>FOR A NEW NUT? >> >> >> >>Regards >>Frank >> >>On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee" >><michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >> >> >>>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the >>>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric >>>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is >>>less >>>than 500, so something is incomplete.... >>> >>>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd >>>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2 >>>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose >>>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool. >>> >>>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it >>>is >>>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to >>>the >>>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, >>>too. >>>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that. >>> >>>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they >>>fit >>>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would >>>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a >>>jackstand. >>> >>>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry. >>> >>>Mike >>> >>>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message >>>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost .talkaboutautos.com... >>> >>>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and >>>>used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker >>>>bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank >>>>immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have >>>>just broken some tools. >>>> >>>>But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too >>>>much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do >>>>the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an >>>>impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get >>>>really hot, even if it wasn't spinning. >>>> >>>>Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at >>>>least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big >>>>difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the >>>>size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I >>>>took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose, >>>>not a 3/8 like we all use. >>>> >>>>t >>>> why don't y'all just buy the freakin' tool? it's a damned sight cheaper than paying a shop to change your belts - which is what you want, right? and more importantly, it's a damned sight cheaper than messing up your drivetrain by trying to hold the crank through the transmission! heck, the number of people on this group doing this job, why not just buy one & resell it here each time the next person needs to use it??? it's one of these two: http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=697 http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...OD&ProdID=1217 people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of the crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the proper tool!!! |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Michael Pardee wrote:
> The bolt is a pretty stout one. It has to be, considering the waling on them > we are doing without them moving! But if the head breaks off, there is the > question of what it would take to remove the remains from inside the > crankshaft. I have heard speculation that the threads are loc-tited, but I > doubt it. They are just beastly tight. It would be a real risk to commit to > removing the bolt body without damaging the crank threads. > > Today I got a regulator and guage to put at the impact wrench. I haven't > tried it on the bolt yet, but the guage indicates I get 20 psi drop through > the 3/8 inch hose when I put 90 lbs on the hose at the tank and run the > impact driver no-load. Now I can run the hose at 120-140 psi and regulate it > to 90 at the tool. > > Another piece of the puzzle is the restraint of the pulley. I still expect > to just use the gearbox and brakes to backstop the impact driver. > > Mike > > <aaa> wrote in message news:mub5p01bblo6qj32cjuki455u2453g4vqk@4ax.com... > >>I have been reading all the messages relating to the infernal pully >>bolt. What I have read would frighten the pope. >> >>I was wondering if if would be possible to use a bolt breaker on the >>pully bolt and simply replace it with a new one? >> >>I know bolt breakers are fairly cheap and how much could HONDA CHARGE >>FOR A NEW NUT? >> >> >> >>Regards >>Frank >> >>On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 14:28:05 -0700, "Michael Pardee" >><michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote: >> >> >>>You're reading my mind, T. I went to the local rental place and the >>>knowledgable-sounding mechanic said he had used their 440 ft-lb electric >>>(with 3/4 drive) to break loose a Subaru and a Honda crank bolt. 440 is >>>less >>>than 500, so something is incomplete.... >>> >>>A 50 ft 3/8 inch hose with a cheap regulator at the tank isn't what I'd >>>choose for best whack. I'm headed to the stores today to see about a 1/2 >>>inch hose and a regulator to put at the driver end, so I can pump the hose >>>up to 120 lbs without blowing up the tool. >>> >>>In addition, I'm thinking about using the strap wrench on the socket (it >>>is >>>a deep socket) to take the slack out. My son said the socket got hot to >>>the >>>touch, so we must be losing some of the energy at the socket interface, >>>too. >>>I'm hoping the strap wrench will take care of that. >>> >>>I've seen ads for tools to counterhold the pulley from the inside - they >>>fit >>>that large hex recess - and it would be nice to have one. That would >>>probably "buck" the bolt best, especially if I could rest it on a >>>jackstand. >>> >>>I'm just glad we aren't in a hurry. >>> >>>Mike >>> >>>"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message >>>news:0f890b0a5bd59c4c35d13f8e4578457a@localhost .talkaboutautos.com... >>> >>>>I used a chain wrench to immobilize the crankshaft, and >>>>used some jackstands for a fulcrum, with a 6 foot breaker >>>>bar. It did NOT work. Perhaps if I had the proper crank >>>>immobilizer, but I am fairly certain that I would have >>>>just broken some tools. >>>> >>>>But I think Michael has the right idea, some heat (not too >>>>much as you don't want to cook the seals) would probably do >>>>the trick. In fact, if you think about it, thats what an >>>>impact gun would do after a while, that bolt would get >>>>really hot, even if it wasn't spinning. >>>> >>>>Michael, I think the big difference is not really the air tool, at >>>>least not if its 500ft-lbs or over, in my opinion. The big >>>>difference is the strength of your compressor. Also, the >>>>size and length of the air hose going to the gun. When I >>>>took my car to Honda finally, they used their 1/2" air hose, >>>>not a 3/8 like we all use. >>>> >>>>t >>>> why don't y'all just buy the freakin' tool? it's a damned sight cheaper than paying a shop to change your belts - which is what you want, right? and more importantly, it's a damned sight cheaper than messing up your drivetrain by trying to hold the crank through the transmission! heck, the number of people on this group doing this job, why not just buy one & resell it here each time the next person needs to use it??? it's one of these two: http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=697 http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...OD&ProdID=1217 people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of the crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the proper tool!!! |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> why don't y'all just buy the freakin' tool? it's a damned sight cheaper > than paying a shop to change your belts - which is what you want, right? > and more importantly, it's a damned sight cheaper than messing up your > drivetrain by trying to hold the crank through the transmission! heck, > the number of people on this group doing this job, why not just buy one > & resell it here each time the next person needs to use it??? > it's one of these two: > http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=697 > http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...OD&ProdID=1217 > people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen > the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only > reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a > high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of > the crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the > proper tool!!! People should do fine with a practical tool like a crowbar on the starter teeth (manuals transmission.) For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. Here's a better one, jam a whole roll of sisal rope into the cylinder near the pulley. The problem with a special tool is its impractical nature. Use once and throw out and then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. Special tools are the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about right, like this one. http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> why don't y'all just buy the freakin' tool? it's a damned sight cheaper > than paying a shop to change your belts - which is what you want, right? > and more importantly, it's a damned sight cheaper than messing up your > drivetrain by trying to hold the crank through the transmission! heck, > the number of people on this group doing this job, why not just buy one > & resell it here each time the next person needs to use it??? > it's one of these two: > http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=697 > http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...OD&ProdID=1217 > people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen > the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only > reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a > high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of > the crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the > proper tool!!! People should do fine with a practical tool like a crowbar on the starter teeth (manuals transmission.) For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. Here's a better one, jam a whole roll of sisal rope into the cylinder near the pulley. The problem with a special tool is its impractical nature. Use once and throw out and then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. Special tools are the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about right, like this one. http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
burt squareman wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > >>why don't y'all just buy the freakin' tool? it's a damned sight cheaper >>than paying a shop to change your belts - which is what you want, right? >> and more importantly, it's a damned sight cheaper than messing up your >>drivetrain by trying to hold the crank through the transmission! heck, >>the number of people on this group doing this job, why not just buy one >>& resell it here each time the next person needs to use it??? >>it's one of these two: >>http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=697 >>http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...OD&ProdID=1217 >>people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen >>the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only >>reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a >>high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of >>the crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the >>proper tool!!! > > > People should do fine with a practical tool like a crowbar on the starter > teeth (manuals transmission.) i've seen that shear teeth. > For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. same. > Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. the pulley's already designed with holding features - why not use them? > Here's a better one, > jam a whole roll of sisal rope into the cylinder near the pulley. that works, but i'd only use it on a junker i didn't care about. > The problem > with a special tool is its impractical nature. Use once and throw out don't care. it's still cheaper than paying through the nose for an underpaid-&-don't-care kid to do a lousy job at the local dealership. > and > then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't > like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with > human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been > proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees > is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. you're talking permanent bending. i'm talking elastic windup. read back in this thread and earlier ones - caroline's comes to mind - for windup horror stories. > Special tools are > the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about right, > like this one. > > http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm > that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
burt squareman wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > >>why don't y'all just buy the freakin' tool? it's a damned sight cheaper >>than paying a shop to change your belts - which is what you want, right? >> and more importantly, it's a damned sight cheaper than messing up your >>drivetrain by trying to hold the crank through the transmission! heck, >>the number of people on this group doing this job, why not just buy one >>& resell it here each time the next person needs to use it??? >>it's one of these two: >>http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...ROD&ProdID=697 >>http://www.etoolcart.com/index.asp?P...OD&ProdID=1217 >>people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen >>the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only >>reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a >>high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of >>the crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the >>proper tool!!! > > > People should do fine with a practical tool like a crowbar on the starter > teeth (manuals transmission.) i've seen that shear teeth. > For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. same. > Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. the pulley's already designed with holding features - why not use them? > Here's a better one, > jam a whole roll of sisal rope into the cylinder near the pulley. that works, but i'd only use it on a junker i didn't care about. > The problem > with a special tool is its impractical nature. Use once and throw out don't care. it's still cheaper than paying through the nose for an underpaid-&-don't-care kid to do a lousy job at the local dealership. > and > then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't > like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with > human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been > proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees > is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. you're talking permanent bending. i'm talking elastic windup. read back in this thread and earlier ones - caroline's comes to mind - for windup horror stories. > Special tools are > the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about right, > like this one. > > http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm > that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message news:2fc43da9785484d0d9c9780d2fc149e0@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> I wouldn't try that [crank pulley bolt+starter] on a Honda, > since the engine runs COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. Works on some Acura Legends and 1982-4 Hondas. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"disallow" <loewen_t at yahoo.ca @> wrote in message news:2fc43da9785484d0d9c9780d2fc149e0@localhost.ta lkaboutautos.com...
> I wouldn't try that [crank pulley bolt+starter] on a Honda, > since the engine runs COUNTER-CLOCKWISE. Works on some Acura Legends and 1982-4 Hondas. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message news:_-ydnUGF5_42_BLcRVn-tQ@sedona.net...
> I think you were lucky, Ricky, or not the first > person to loosen those bolts. There mostly 90-100K. I've sucessfully disassemble/ reassemble Honda starter solenoids, fuel pumps, alternators, compressors, transmissions, fuel injectors and etc without any hints of cursing. Maybe this is the key. > (I'm sure glad they were new engine mounts.) I believe you can secure them. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message news:_-ydnUGF5_42_BLcRVn-tQ@sedona.net...
> I think you were lucky, Ricky, or not the first > person to loosen those bolts. There mostly 90-100K. I've sucessfully disassemble/ reassemble Honda starter solenoids, fuel pumps, alternators, compressors, transmissions, fuel injectors and etc without any hints of cursing. Maybe this is the key. > (I'm sure glad they were new engine mounts.) I believe you can secure them. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:GKqdnW3jFZsdjA7cRVn-rw@comcast.com...
> > For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. >[ same.] Impossible if done right. > > People should do fine a crowbar on flywheel. > [i've seen that shear teeth.] That's a starter problem. > > Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. > [the pulley's already designed with holding features - why not use them?] Am I the only one who loves drilling holes? Plus, holder shipment takes days. > > The problem with a special tool is its > > impractical nature. Use once and throw out > [don't care. it's still cheaper than paying through the nose for an > underpaid-&-don't-care kid to do a lousy job at the local dealership.] Our intent was on saving. > [that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's.] I've done belts the 88-91. They come with pulley holes which I immobilize with a cheap rod, why buy these $60-70 tools? |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:GKqdnW3jFZsdjA7cRVn-rw@comcast.com...
> > For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. >[ same.] Impossible if done right. > > People should do fine a crowbar on flywheel. > [i've seen that shear teeth.] That's a starter problem. > > Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. > [the pulley's already designed with holding features - why not use them?] Am I the only one who loves drilling holes? Plus, holder shipment takes days. > > The problem with a special tool is its > > impractical nature. Use once and throw out > [don't care. it's still cheaper than paying through the nose for an > underpaid-&-don't-care kid to do a lousy job at the local dealership.] Our intent was on saving. > [that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's.] I've done belts the 88-91. They come with pulley holes which I immobilize with a cheap rod, why buy these $60-70 tools? |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen > the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only > reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a > high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of the > crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the proper > tool!!! > I don't think the crank bends. Cranks are mighty brittle and may break, but I've never heard of one bending. The 500 ft-lb impact should be the correct removal tool as long as I get 90 psi to it at the tool, and the Honda holding tool isn't available locally (I checked). With the impact driver and the manual tranny, holding shouldn't be a big problem anyway. My son works today but we might get a crack at it this evening. At this stage, we only want to break the bolt loose and retorque to spec so we have a clear shot at completing the job when his oil seals come in. Mike |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen > the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only > reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a > high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of the > crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the proper > tool!!! > I don't think the crank bends. Cranks are mighty brittle and may break, but I've never heard of one bending. The 500 ft-lb impact should be the correct removal tool as long as I get 90 psi to it at the tool, and the Honda holding tool isn't available locally (I checked). With the impact driver and the manual tranny, holding shouldn't be a big problem anyway. My son works today but we might get a crack at it this evening. At this stage, we only want to break the bolt loose and retorque to spec so we have a clear shot at completing the job when his oil seals come in. Mike |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message > news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > >>people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen >>the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only >>reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a >>high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of the >>crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the proper >>tool!!! >> > > I don't think the crank bends. Cranks are mighty brittle and may break, but > I've never heard of one bending. believe it or not, cranks are elastic, just like humungous great crow bar like 30mm sway bars are elastic. we're not talking about permanent plastic deformation, but reversible elastic windup under high torque. [in physical terms, it's impossible for any component to take any load without a degree of elastic deformation.] > > The 500 ft-lb impact should be the correct removal tool as long as I get 90 > psi to it at the tool, and the Honda holding tool isn't available locally (I > checked). that's why there's online suppliers of tools - as well as honda parts. > With the impact driver and the manual tranny, holding shouldn't be > a big problem anyway. My son works today but we might get a crack at it this > evening. At this stage, we only want to break the bolt loose and retorque to > spec so we have a clear shot at completing the job when his oil seals come > in. so there's still time to order the right tool? how does the cost of the big impact driver compare to the holder? > > Mike > nothing personal mike - it's just that i used to be a mechanic and it used to frustrate the heck out of me when someone came in with a vehicle they'd fubared, then swear bind they'd never touched it. even though their knuckes were still bleeding and fresh blood was all over the broken whateveritwas. and then they'd complain about the extra labor necessary to get their mess sorted out! believe me, i have a patent on being cheap. i /don't/ have a patent on costing myself more than i "saved" by not doing a job right & fouling it up. now that i've finished ranting, yes, the big impact will definitely do the job if you have a big enough air supply. often, a lot of home systems just don't have the capacity to cope with the big pressure drops of larger tools. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Michael Pardee wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message > news:zrmdnVMzVf8mZg_cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > >>people freak when they're getting 90 degrees of windup trying to loosen >>the thing - well, no kidding - they're bending the crank!!! the only >>reason the chuffing great industrial air tool works is because it has a >>high /rate/ of torque application which works against the momentum of the >>crank, not that needs to apply its full power. again, get the proper >>tool!!! >> > > I don't think the crank bends. Cranks are mighty brittle and may break, but > I've never heard of one bending. believe it or not, cranks are elastic, just like humungous great crow bar like 30mm sway bars are elastic. we're not talking about permanent plastic deformation, but reversible elastic windup under high torque. [in physical terms, it's impossible for any component to take any load without a degree of elastic deformation.] > > The 500 ft-lb impact should be the correct removal tool as long as I get 90 > psi to it at the tool, and the Honda holding tool isn't available locally (I > checked). that's why there's online suppliers of tools - as well as honda parts. > With the impact driver and the manual tranny, holding shouldn't be > a big problem anyway. My son works today but we might get a crack at it this > evening. At this stage, we only want to break the bolt loose and retorque to > spec so we have a clear shot at completing the job when his oil seals come > in. so there's still time to order the right tool? how does the cost of the big impact driver compare to the holder? > > Mike > nothing personal mike - it's just that i used to be a mechanic and it used to frustrate the heck out of me when someone came in with a vehicle they'd fubared, then swear bind they'd never touched it. even though their knuckes were still bleeding and fresh blood was all over the broken whateveritwas. and then they'd complain about the extra labor necessary to get their mess sorted out! believe me, i have a patent on being cheap. i /don't/ have a patent on costing myself more than i "saved" by not doing a job right & fouling it up. now that i've finished ranting, yes, the big impact will definitely do the job if you have a big enough air supply. often, a lot of home systems just don't have the capacity to cope with the big pressure drops of larger tools. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
burt squareman wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:GKqdnW3jFZsdjA7cRVn-rw@comcast.com... > > >>>For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. >> >>[ same.] > > > Impossible if done right. > > >>>People should do fine a crowbar on flywheel. >> >>[i've seen that shear teeth.] > > > That's a starter problem. > > >>>Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. >> >>[the pulley's already designed with holding features - why not use them?] > > > Am I the only one who loves drilling holes? don't ever touch one of my cars. _ever_. you ever heard of balancing? > Plus, holder shipment takes days. > > > > The problem with a special tool is its > >>>impractical nature. Use once and throw out >> >>[don't care. it's still cheaper than paying through the nose for an >>underpaid-&-don't-care kid to do a lousy job at the local dealership.] > > > Our intent was on saving. "saving" means after the job is done, not excluding the cost of fixing stuff that's been messed up. > > >>[that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's.] > > > I've done belts the 88-91. They come with pulley holes which > I immobilize with a cheap rod, why buy these $60-70 tools? > because they load the pulley in the way it was designed, not lever it in some oblique mode that may or may not bend the pulley off center. not to mention the time involved messing about with a cludge. bottom line burt, it's your car - you do whatever you want. but if you came to me after you'd messed something up, i'd charge you through the nose so bad, you'd think paying for the right tool was a privilege. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
burt squareman wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:GKqdnW3jFZsdjA7cRVn-rw@comcast.com... > > >>>For autos, go for the flywheel with a fit tool. >> >>[ same.] > > > Impossible if done right. > > >>>People should do fine a crowbar on flywheel. >> >>[i've seen that shear teeth.] > > > That's a starter problem. > > >>>Or put a hole on the pulley and secure it to a chain. >> >>[the pulley's already designed with holding features - why not use them?] > > > Am I the only one who loves drilling holes? don't ever touch one of my cars. _ever_. you ever heard of balancing? > Plus, holder shipment takes days. > > > > The problem with a special tool is its > >>>impractical nature. Use once and throw out >> >>[don't care. it's still cheaper than paying through the nose for an >>underpaid-&-don't-care kid to do a lousy job at the local dealership.] > > > Our intent was on saving. "saving" means after the job is done, not excluding the cost of fixing stuff that's been messed up. > > >>[that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's.] > > > I've done belts the 88-91. They come with pulley holes which > I immobilize with a cheap rod, why buy these $60-70 tools? > because they load the pulley in the way it was designed, not lever it in some oblique mode that may or may not bend the pulley off center. not to mention the time involved messing about with a cludge. bottom line burt, it's your car - you do whatever you want. but if you came to me after you'd messed something up, i'd charge you through the nose so bad, you'd think paying for the right tool was a privilege. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:nb6dnUJANdQH4w7cRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> burt squareman wrote: > don't ever touch one of my cars. _ever_. you ever heard of balancing? Each side will get a precise hole. I would never drill holes unless they're mine, probably will elect not to do so, unless out of options. > because they load the pulley in the way it was designed, not lever it in > some oblique mode that may or may not bend the pulley off center. not > to mention the time involved messing about with a cludge. > bottom line burt, it's your car - you do whatever you want. but if you > came to me after you'd messed something up, i'd charge you through the > nose so bad, you'd think paying for the right tool was a privilege. It's a free country, each independent person will do as they wish to their vehicle. My 16-year old 260K Honda has never need outside consulting. The only costly parts I've replace are the water pump and battery. I probably shouldn't reseat a new bearing and machine seals for my water pump but what the heck, I'll try it out anyway in about 10-years and making sure it'll continue to stay away from outside consulting. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:nb6dnUJANdQH4w7cRVn-iw@comcast.com...
> burt squareman wrote: > don't ever touch one of my cars. _ever_. you ever heard of balancing? Each side will get a precise hole. I would never drill holes unless they're mine, probably will elect not to do so, unless out of options. > because they load the pulley in the way it was designed, not lever it in > some oblique mode that may or may not bend the pulley off center. not > to mention the time involved messing about with a cludge. > bottom line burt, it's your car - you do whatever you want. but if you > came to me after you'd messed something up, i'd charge you through the > nose so bad, you'd think paying for the right tool was a privilege. It's a free country, each independent person will do as they wish to their vehicle. My 16-year old 260K Honda has never need outside consulting. The only costly parts I've replace are the water pump and battery. I probably shouldn't reseat a new bearing and machine seals for my water pump but what the heck, I'll try it out anyway in about 10-years and making sure it'll continue to stay away from outside consulting. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> burt squareman wrote: > > and > > then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't > > like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with > > human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been > > proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees > > is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. > > you're talking permanent bending. i'm talking elastic windup. read > back in this thread and earlier ones - caroline's comes to mind - for > windup horror stories. Hey, you're the one who characterizes these as horror stories. :-) If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or minus, of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this as an approximation. IMO, my pulley bolt removal went really well, once I had the right pulley holder tool (custom design by Eric with modifications by Caroline for her 91 Civic's slightly different pulley). I credit doing a lot of research here, first. I've used my home-made tool twice since and it's fantastic. (Though of course freeing the bolt a few times within a month or so means the bolt hadn't been through a lot of heat cycles and so wasn't as hard to free after the first loosening.) I'm not sure whether you mean literally bending the crankshaft. I estimate 10 degrees to 90 degrees of twist may be necessary, but the only thing that is moving (twisting before the bolt comes free) are the extensions and possibly deep socket. The stress comes mostly from twisting, not bending. Not using a jack to support the extensions will likely result in something failing. I talked to a couple of yahoo guys in one of my auto classes who were trying to free a pulley bolt on their IIRC 98 Civic, and they bragged about breaking two Crafstman half-inch extensions. "Did you support the extensions with a jack?" I asked. "Um, no.... " So of course bending stress and twisting stress added together in the extensions and busted them right apart. Some people (boys) need to be cautioned about this. They're the horror stories. Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her car over 80 mph in her life. ;-) > > Special tools are > > the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about right, > > like this one. > > > > http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm > > > > that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's. Anyone wanting the "custom tool" recipe for many or all of the 88-91's, go to www.groups.google.com and search for the following: { "surveying stake" pulley author:caroline group:rec.autos.makers.honda } Omit the lock washers. The hose is fine as a spacer to protect the pulley lip. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> burt squareman wrote: > > and > > then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't > > like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with > > human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been > > proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees > > is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. > > you're talking permanent bending. i'm talking elastic windup. read > back in this thread and earlier ones - caroline's comes to mind - for > windup horror stories. Hey, you're the one who characterizes these as horror stories. :-) If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or minus, of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this as an approximation. IMO, my pulley bolt removal went really well, once I had the right pulley holder tool (custom design by Eric with modifications by Caroline for her 91 Civic's slightly different pulley). I credit doing a lot of research here, first. I've used my home-made tool twice since and it's fantastic. (Though of course freeing the bolt a few times within a month or so means the bolt hadn't been through a lot of heat cycles and so wasn't as hard to free after the first loosening.) I'm not sure whether you mean literally bending the crankshaft. I estimate 10 degrees to 90 degrees of twist may be necessary, but the only thing that is moving (twisting before the bolt comes free) are the extensions and possibly deep socket. The stress comes mostly from twisting, not bending. Not using a jack to support the extensions will likely result in something failing. I talked to a couple of yahoo guys in one of my auto classes who were trying to free a pulley bolt on their IIRC 98 Civic, and they bragged about breaking two Crafstman half-inch extensions. "Did you support the extensions with a jack?" I asked. "Um, no.... " So of course bending stress and twisting stress added together in the extensions and busted them right apart. Some people (boys) need to be cautioned about this. They're the horror stories. Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her car over 80 mph in her life. ;-) > > Special tools are > > the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about right, > > like this one. > > > > http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm > > > > that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's. Anyone wanting the "custom tool" recipe for many or all of the 88-91's, go to www.groups.google.com and search for the following: { "surveying stake" pulley author:caroline group:rec.autos.makers.honda } Omit the lock washers. The hose is fine as a spacer to protect the pulley lip. |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"burt squareman" <catnip4sale@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1100154561.ya37NvF5b0DzULdyGoj5ug@bubbanews.. . > Special tools are > the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about > right, > like this one. > > http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm > > That's the direction I'll go. Thanks for the link, Burt! The better the backstop on the pulley, the better I figure the impact will work. My daughter has a '93 Accord - the timing belt was replaced 3 years, 50K miles ago and it has an auto tranny. I'll check back in after the tool arrives and we get it scheduled. Mike |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"burt squareman" <catnip4sale@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1100154561.ya37NvF5b0DzULdyGoj5ug@bubbanews.. . > Special tools are > the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about > right, > like this one. > > http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm > > That's the direction I'll go. Thanks for the link, Burt! The better the backstop on the pulley, the better I figure the impact will work. My daughter has a '93 Accord - the timing belt was replaced 3 years, 50K miles ago and it has an auto tranny. I'll check back in after the tool arrives and we get it scheduled. Mike |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
burt squareman wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:nb6dnUJANdQH4w7cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > >>burt squareman wrote: > > >>don't ever touch one of my cars. _ever_. you ever heard of balancing? > > > Each side will get a precise hole. I would never drill holes unless > they're mine, probably will elect not to do so, unless out of options. burt, i honestly don't mean this to come across like a bitchfest, even if it sounds like one. drilling opposed holes is pretty random as to whether it's going to preserve balance. castings, such as pulley wheels, tend to have voids or porosity that can leave the piece of non-uniform density. that's why they need to be balanced before the engine is assembled. and because of this different density, you may be drilling solid material out of one side, but porous out of the other, hence the balance is now lost. pretty sure you know the effects imbalance can have on bearing life, seals, etc. true, honda castings are pretty good, and you may get lucky, but in principle, drilling is really not a good plan. > > >>because they load the pulley in the way it was designed, not lever it in >>some oblique mode that may or may not bend the pulley off center. not >>to mention the time involved messing about with a cludge. >>bottom line burt, it's your car - you do whatever you want. but if you >>came to me after you'd messed something up, i'd charge you through the >>nose so bad, you'd think paying for the right tool was a privilege. > > > It's a free country, each independent person will do as they wish to their > vehicle. My 16-year old 260K Honda has never need outside consulting. > The only costly parts I've replace are the water pump and battery. I > probably shouldn't reseat a new bearing and machine seals for my water > pump but what the heck, I'll try it out anyway in about 10-years and making > sure it'll continue to stay away from outside consulting. > > > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
burt squareman wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message news:nb6dnUJANdQH4w7cRVn-iw@comcast.com... > >>burt squareman wrote: > > >>don't ever touch one of my cars. _ever_. you ever heard of balancing? > > > Each side will get a precise hole. I would never drill holes unless > they're mine, probably will elect not to do so, unless out of options. burt, i honestly don't mean this to come across like a bitchfest, even if it sounds like one. drilling opposed holes is pretty random as to whether it's going to preserve balance. castings, such as pulley wheels, tend to have voids or porosity that can leave the piece of non-uniform density. that's why they need to be balanced before the engine is assembled. and because of this different density, you may be drilling solid material out of one side, but porous out of the other, hence the balance is now lost. pretty sure you know the effects imbalance can have on bearing life, seals, etc. true, honda castings are pretty good, and you may get lucky, but in principle, drilling is really not a good plan. > > >>because they load the pulley in the way it was designed, not lever it in >>some oblique mode that may or may not bend the pulley off center. not >>to mention the time involved messing about with a cludge. >>bottom line burt, it's your car - you do whatever you want. but if you >>came to me after you'd messed something up, i'd charge you through the >>nose so bad, you'd think paying for the right tool was a privilege. > > > It's a free country, each independent person will do as they wish to their > vehicle. My 16-year old 260K Honda has never need outside consulting. > The only costly parts I've replace are the water pump and battery. I > probably shouldn't reseat a new bearing and machine seals for my water > pump but what the heck, I'll try it out anyway in about 10-years and making > sure it'll continue to stay away from outside consulting. > > > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Caroline wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > >>burt squareman wrote: > > >>>and >>>then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't >>>like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with >>>human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been >>>proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees >>>is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. >> >>you're talking permanent bending. i'm talking elastic windup. read >>back in this thread and earlier ones - caroline's comes to mind - for >>windup horror stories. > > > Hey, you're the one who characterizes these as horror stories. :-) > > If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, > yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, > altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or minus, > of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this as > an approximation. yes, and you get windup through the engine & transmission components too. > > IMO, my pulley bolt removal went really well, once I had the right pulley holder > tool (custom design by Eric with modifications by Caroline for her 91 Civic's > slightly different pulley). I credit doing a lot of research here, first. I've > used my home-made tool twice since and it's fantastic. (Though of course freeing > the bolt a few times within a month or so means the bolt hadn't been through a > lot of heat cycles and so wasn't as hard to free after the first loosening.) > > I'm not sure whether you mean literally bending the crankshaft. no, elastic windup. > I estimate 10 > degrees to 90 degrees of twist may be necessary, but the only thing that is > moving (twisting before the bolt comes free) are the extensions and possibly > deep socket. The stress comes mostly from twisting, not bending. > > Not using a jack to support the extensions will likely result in something > failing. I talked to a couple of yahoo guys in one of my auto classes who were > trying to free a pulley bolt on their IIRC 98 Civic, and they bragged about > breaking two Crafstman half-inch extensions. "Did you support the extensions > with a jack?" I asked. "Um, no.... " So of course bending stress and twisting > stress added together in the extensions and busted them right apart. > > Some people (boys) need to be cautioned about this. They're the horror stories. > Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her car > over 80 mph in her life. ;-) how about hitting the red line? c'mon caroline, consider it an [engineering] exercise in envelope determination! > > >>>Special tools are >>>the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about > > right, > >>>like this one. >>> >>>http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm >>> >> >>that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's. > > > Anyone wanting the "custom tool" recipe for many or all of the 88-91's, go to > www.groups.google.com and search for the following: > > { "surveying stake" pulley author:caroline group:rec.autos.makers.honda } > > Omit the lock washers. The hose is fine as a spacer to protect the pulley lip. > > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Caroline wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > >>burt squareman wrote: > > >>>and >>>then relying on another individual or organization, since most men don't >>>like to ask for directions. There's no chance of bending the crank with >>>human muscle. Even if you're using hydraulics force there has never been >>>proof of damage other than the motor mount jumping out. But 90 degrees >>>is almost impossible with what most of us are capable of. >> >>you're talking permanent bending. i'm talking elastic windup. read >>back in this thread and earlier ones - caroline's comes to mind - for >>windup horror stories. > > > Hey, you're the one who characterizes these as horror stories. :-) > > If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, > yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, > altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or minus, > of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this as > an approximation. yes, and you get windup through the engine & transmission components too. > > IMO, my pulley bolt removal went really well, once I had the right pulley holder > tool (custom design by Eric with modifications by Caroline for her 91 Civic's > slightly different pulley). I credit doing a lot of research here, first. I've > used my home-made tool twice since and it's fantastic. (Though of course freeing > the bolt a few times within a month or so means the bolt hadn't been through a > lot of heat cycles and so wasn't as hard to free after the first loosening.) > > I'm not sure whether you mean literally bending the crankshaft. no, elastic windup. > I estimate 10 > degrees to 90 degrees of twist may be necessary, but the only thing that is > moving (twisting before the bolt comes free) are the extensions and possibly > deep socket. The stress comes mostly from twisting, not bending. > > Not using a jack to support the extensions will likely result in something > failing. I talked to a couple of yahoo guys in one of my auto classes who were > trying to free a pulley bolt on their IIRC 98 Civic, and they bragged about > breaking two Crafstman half-inch extensions. "Did you support the extensions > with a jack?" I asked. "Um, no.... " So of course bending stress and twisting > stress added together in the extensions and busted them right apart. > > Some people (boys) need to be cautioned about this. They're the horror stories. > Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her car > over 80 mph in her life. ;-) how about hitting the red line? c'mon caroline, consider it an [engineering] exercise in envelope determination! > > >>>Special tools are >>>the safest route but at least don't pay 60-$70 for it. 20-$30 is about > > right, > >>>like this one. >>> >>>http://www.autopart.com/TOOLS/TOOLSMAIN/tool/T_A812.htm >>> >> >>that works for 92 up, not the excellent 88-91's. > > > Anyone wanting the "custom tool" recipe for many or all of the 88-91's, go to > www.groups.google.com and search for the following: > > { "surveying stake" pulley author:caroline group:rec.autos.makers.honda } > > Omit the lock washers. The hose is fine as a spacer to protect the pulley lip. > > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> Caroline wrote: snip > > If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, > > yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, > > altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or minus, > > of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this as > > an approximation. > > yes, and you get windup through the engine & transmission components too. The pulley is keyed to its shaft. Immobilizing the pulley immobilizes the crankshaft. Thus the torque applied by the technician or DIYer is resisted by the pulley holding tool, which in turn is held immobile by the ground (in the case of my and many others' design). snip > > Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her car > > over 80 mph in her life. ;-) > > how about hitting the red line? c'mon caroline, consider it an > [engineering] exercise in envelope determination! I don't understand this culture of recklessness. I have too much to do in life to take these kind of risks. Great fuel mileage, not speed, is a much bigger thrill for me. Just saying. :-) Caroline "Don't get metaphorical on me... Well, you could, and you'd be right, but let's keep this a PG-13 group." |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote
> Caroline wrote: snip > > If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, > > yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, > > altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or minus, > > of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this as > > an approximation. > > yes, and you get windup through the engine & transmission components too. The pulley is keyed to its shaft. Immobilizing the pulley immobilizes the crankshaft. Thus the torque applied by the technician or DIYer is resisted by the pulley holding tool, which in turn is held immobile by the ground (in the case of my and many others' design). snip > > Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her car > > over 80 mph in her life. ;-) > > how about hitting the red line? c'mon caroline, consider it an > [engineering] exercise in envelope determination! I don't understand this culture of recklessness. I have too much to do in life to take these kind of risks. Great fuel mileage, not speed, is a much bigger thrill for me. Just saying. :-) Caroline "Don't get metaphorical on me... Well, you could, and you'd be right, but let's keep this a PG-13 group." |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Caroline wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > >>Caroline wrote: > > snip > >>>If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, >>>yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, >>>altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or > > minus, > >>>of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this > > as > >>>an approximation. >> >>yes, and you get windup through the engine & transmission components too. > > > The pulley is keyed to its shaft. Immobilizing the pulley immobilizes the > crankshaft. > > Thus the torque applied by the technician or DIYer is resisted by the pulley > holding tool, which in turn is held immobile by the ground (in the case of my > and many others' design). absolutely! it's the folks trying to hold the pulley through the transmission with the brakes on that are making me cringe. > > snip > >>>Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her > > car > >>>over 80 mph in her life. ;-) >> >>how about hitting the red line? c'mon caroline, consider it an >>[engineering] exercise in envelope determination! > > > I don't understand this culture of recklessness. I have too much to do in life > to take these kind of risks. > > Great fuel mileage, not speed, is a much bigger thrill for me. so, party at your place then? just kidding. > > Just saying. :-) > > Caroline > "Don't get metaphorical on me... Well, you could, and you'd be right, but let's > keep this a PG-13 group." > > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Caroline wrote:
> "jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote > >>Caroline wrote: > > snip > >>>If the torque required is about 500 ft-lbs, and with some other assumptions, >>>yes, the rotation of the socket and extensions (over 20 inches in length, >>>altogether) from one end to the other will be around 75 degrees. Plus or > > minus, > >>>of course, given the assumptions. The actual experience I had validated this > > as > >>>an approximation. >> >>yes, and you get windup through the engine & transmission components too. > > > The pulley is keyed to its shaft. Immobilizing the pulley immobilizes the > crankshaft. > > Thus the torque applied by the technician or DIYer is resisted by the pulley > holding tool, which in turn is held immobile by the ground (in the case of my > and many others' design). absolutely! it's the folks trying to hold the pulley through the transmission with the brakes on that are making me cringe. > > snip > >>>Not an effin' experienced woman mechanical engineer who's never driven her > > car > >>>over 80 mph in her life. ;-) >> >>how about hitting the red line? c'mon caroline, consider it an >>[engineering] exercise in envelope determination! > > > I don't understand this culture of recklessness. I have too much to do in life > to take these kind of risks. > > Great fuel mileage, not speed, is a much bigger thrill for me. so, party at your place then? just kidding. > > Just saying. :-) > > Caroline > "Don't get metaphorical on me... Well, you could, and you'd be right, but let's > keep this a PG-13 group." > > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Sorry I didn't get back to you.
A 3/4 air gun sets around 750 ft lbs I believe. It was a used one on the snap-on truck, a central pneumatics I believe. A larger gun has bigger hammers, and doesn't beat you up as much as a 1/2 inch gun. more force goes into the socket. Working in a auto shop, we occasionally get the stubborn bolts, and on occasion have tried everyone's gun in the shop. Sometimes some will work where another one won't. the 3/4 has always worked. Once the shop downtown from us called asking if I still had such a gun, they were fighting a crank bolt for several hours with a huge compressor and a bunch of 1/2 inch guns. No success. Big Bertha did the job with no problem I wouldn't use heat on a crank. See if you can find a big gun and give it a try. Of coarse air supply is important, but usually on a small compressor, the initial trigger pull and the first 5 seconds will tell you if you are going to win. "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message news:woKdnVQPqoDBMw3cRVn-hQ@sedona.net... > "Steve" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:JrYjd.868240$Gx4.741590@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> It's a good method, and will work sometimes. I have a 3/4 inch gun >> just-in-case. It always works >> >> >> -- >> Stephen W. Hansen >> ASE Certified Auto Technician >> >> > What's the peak torque on that? > > Mike > shade tree fixit man > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Sorry I didn't get back to you.
A 3/4 air gun sets around 750 ft lbs I believe. It was a used one on the snap-on truck, a central pneumatics I believe. A larger gun has bigger hammers, and doesn't beat you up as much as a 1/2 inch gun. more force goes into the socket. Working in a auto shop, we occasionally get the stubborn bolts, and on occasion have tried everyone's gun in the shop. Sometimes some will work where another one won't. the 3/4 has always worked. Once the shop downtown from us called asking if I still had such a gun, they were fighting a crank bolt for several hours with a huge compressor and a bunch of 1/2 inch guns. No success. Big Bertha did the job with no problem I wouldn't use heat on a crank. See if you can find a big gun and give it a try. Of coarse air supply is important, but usually on a small compressor, the initial trigger pull and the first 5 seconds will tell you if you are going to win. "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message news:woKdnVQPqoDBMw3cRVn-hQ@sedona.net... > "Steve" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:JrYjd.868240$Gx4.741590@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >> It's a good method, and will work sometimes. I have a 3/4 inch gun >> just-in-case. It always works >> >> >> -- >> Stephen W. Hansen >> ASE Certified Auto Technician >> >> > What's the peak torque on that? > > Mike > shade tree fixit man > |
Re: my civic and its timing belt
Thanks, Steve. That is interesting about the bigger hammers. I can't argue
with results! I've ordered a holder tool for the pulley to stiffen up the work. I'll try the 500 ft-lb, 1/2 inch drive and at-tool regulator with that. At least there is no hurry. The rental place also has a 1 inch drive pneumatic besides the 3/4 inch drive electric. There are options.... As my son mentions, this pretty much answers the question of whether the belt has been replaced before! Mike "Steve" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:uT5ld.890602$Gx4.248400@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Sorry I didn't get back to you. > A 3/4 air gun sets around 750 ft lbs I believe. It was a used one on the > snap-on truck, a central pneumatics I believe. A larger gun has bigger > hammers, and doesn't beat you up as much as a 1/2 inch gun. more force > goes into the socket. Working in a auto shop, we occasionally get the > stubborn bolts, and on occasion have tried everyone's gun in the shop. > Sometimes some will work where another one won't. the 3/4 has always > worked. Once the shop downtown from us called asking if I still had such a > gun, they were fighting a crank bolt for several hours with a huge > compressor and a bunch of 1/2 inch guns. No success. Big Bertha did the > job with no problem > I wouldn't use heat on a crank. See if you can find a big gun and give it > a try. Of coarse air supply is important, but usually on a small > compressor, the initial trigger pull and the first 5 seconds will tell you > if you are going to win. > > > > "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in message > news:woKdnVQPqoDBMw3cRVn-hQ@sedona.net... >> "Steve" <hansensw@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:JrYjd.868240$Gx4.741590@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... >>> It's a good method, and will work sometimes. I have a 3/4 inch gun >>> just-in-case. It always works >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Stephen W. Hansen >>> ASE Certified Auto Technician >>> >>> >> What's the peak torque on that? >> >> Mike >> shade tree fixit man >> > > |
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