jim beam wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>> Burt wrote:
>>
>>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns98327FC2171F4jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>>
>>>
>>>> Generally,ordinary body vibrations keep the main relay working once the
>>>> motor has started running. (and that the car's interior is usually
>>>> cooler
>>>
>>>
>>> once you have it running)
>>>
>>> I don't believe vibrations keep the main relay working once the motor
>>> has started. At certain rpm the vibration is hardly there. ...How did
>>> you
>>> come up with your conclusion?
>>
>>
>> Such a relay should be designed to NOT be affected by vibrations, for
>> good or bad.
>
>
> come on matt, there's limits to that. vibrations at what frequency?
> what g's? how much do you want to spend?

Don't be silly... I was responding to the assertion that the vibrations help to
keep the relay working right. That's just silly - if a relay is RELYING on
vibrations from the running car to work properly, it's either faulty, or a
really poor design to begin with.

> besides, it's not vibration that causes the solder to crack - it's thermal cycling.

Or a combination thereof...

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> Burt wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns98327FC2171F4jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Generally,ordinary body vibrations keep the main relay working once
>>>>> the
>>>>> motor has started running. (and that the car's interior is usually
>>>>> cooler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> once you have it running)
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe vibrations keep the main relay working once the motor
>>>> has started. At certain rpm the vibration is hardly there. ...How
>>>> did you
>>>> come up with your conclusion?
>>>
>>>
>>> Such a relay should be designed to NOT be affected by vibrations, for
>>> good or bad.
>>
>>
>> come on matt, there's limits to that. vibrations at what frequency?
>> what g's? how much do you want to spend?
>
> Don't be silly... I was responding to the assertion that the vibrations
> help to keep the relay working right. That's just silly

agreed.

> - if a relay is
> RELYING on vibrations from the running car to work properly, it's either
> faulty, or a really poor design to begin with.

the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
components on the whole vehicle.

>
>> besides, it's not vibration that causes the solder to crack - it's
>> thermal cycling.
>
> Or a combination thereof...

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> Burt wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns98327FC2171F4jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Generally,ordinary body vibrations keep the main relay working once
>>>>> the
>>>>> motor has started running. (and that the car's interior is usually
>>>>> cooler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> once you have it running)
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe vibrations keep the main relay working once the motor
>>>> has started. At certain rpm the vibration is hardly there. ...How
>>>> did you
>>>> come up with your conclusion?
>>>
>>>
>>> Such a relay should be designed to NOT be affected by vibrations, for
>>> good or bad.
>>
>>
>> come on matt, there's limits to that. vibrations at what frequency?
>> what g's? how much do you want to spend?
>
> Don't be silly... I was responding to the assertion that the vibrations
> help to keep the relay working right. That's just silly

agreed.

> - if a relay is
> RELYING on vibrations from the running car to work properly, it's either
> faulty, or a really poor design to begin with.

the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
components on the whole vehicle.

>
>> besides, it's not vibration that causes the solder to crack - it's
>> thermal cycling.
>
> Or a combination thereof...

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> Burt wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns98327FC2171F4jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Generally,ordinary body vibrations keep the main relay working once
>>>>> the
>>>>> motor has started running. (and that the car's interior is usually
>>>>> cooler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> once you have it running)
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe vibrations keep the main relay working once the motor
>>>> has started. At certain rpm the vibration is hardly there. ...How
>>>> did you
>>>> come up with your conclusion?
>>>
>>>
>>> Such a relay should be designed to NOT be affected by vibrations, for
>>> good or bad.
>>
>>
>> come on matt, there's limits to that. vibrations at what frequency?
>> what g's? how much do you want to spend?
>
> Don't be silly... I was responding to the assertion that the vibrations
> help to keep the relay working right. That's just silly

agreed.

> - if a relay is
> RELYING on vibrations from the running car to work properly, it's either
> faulty, or a really poor design to begin with.

the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
components on the whole vehicle.

>
>> besides, it's not vibration that causes the solder to crack - it's
>> thermal cycling.
>
> Or a combination thereof...

 

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:srHMg.537959$IK3.369846@pd7tw1no:

> jim beam wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> Burt wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns98327FC2171F4jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Generally,ordinary body vibrations keep the main relay working
>>>>> once the motor has started running. (and that the car's interior
>>>>> is usually cooler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> once you have it running)
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe vibrations keep the main relay working once the
>>>> motor has started. At certain rpm the vibration is hardly there.
>>>> ...How did you
>>>> come up with your conclusion?
>>>
>>>
>>> Such a relay should be designed to NOT be affected by vibrations,
>>> for good or bad.
>>
>>
>> come on matt, there's limits to that. vibrations at what frequency?
>> what g's? how much do you want to spend?
>
> Don't be silly... I was responding to the assertion that the
> vibrations help to keep the relay working right. That's just silly -
> if a relay is RELYING on vibrations from the running car to work
> properly, it's either faulty, or a really poor design to begin with.
>
>> besides, it's not vibration that causes the solder to crack - it's
>> thermal cycling.
>
> Or a combination thereof...
>

Actually,IIRC,the vibration stuff was Tegger's guess.

I believe it's that once the car starts and is running,the car interior
(and relay)is cool enough that the solder joints/relay parts have
contracted and make OK contact.I note that often after a 15 minute wait,a
balky starting motor runs,and only fails after another heat soak.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:srHMg.537959$IK3.369846@pd7tw1no:

> jim beam wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> Burt wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns98327FC2171F4jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Generally,ordinary body vibrations keep the main relay working
>>>>> once the motor has started running. (and that the car's interior
>>>>> is usually cooler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> once you have it running)
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe vibrations keep the main relay working once the
>>>> motor has started. At certain rpm the vibration is hardly there.
>>>> ...How did you
>>>> come up with your conclusion?
>>>
>>>
>>> Such a relay should be designed to NOT be affected by vibrations,
>>> for good or bad.
>>
>>
>> come on matt, there's limits to that. vibrations at what frequency?
>> what g's? how much do you want to spend?
>
> Don't be silly... I was responding to the assertion that the
> vibrations help to keep the relay working right. That's just silly -
> if a relay is RELYING on vibrations from the running car to work
> properly, it's either faulty, or a really poor design to begin with.
>
>> besides, it's not vibration that causes the solder to crack - it's
>> thermal cycling.
>
> Or a combination thereof...
>

Actually,IIRC,the vibration stuff was Tegger's guess.

I believe it's that once the car starts and is running,the car interior
(and relay)is cool enough that the solder joints/relay parts have
contracted and make OK contact.I note that often after a 15 minute wait,a
balky starting motor runs,and only fails after another heat soak.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:srHMg.537959$IK3.369846@pd7tw1no:

> jim beam wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>> Burt wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
>>>> news:Xns98327FC2171F4jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Generally,ordinary body vibrations keep the main relay working
>>>>> once the motor has started running. (and that the car's interior
>>>>> is usually cooler
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> once you have it running)
>>>>
>>>> I don't believe vibrations keep the main relay working once the
>>>> motor has started. At certain rpm the vibration is hardly there.
>>>> ...How did you
>>>> come up with your conclusion?
>>>
>>>
>>> Such a relay should be designed to NOT be affected by vibrations,
>>> for good or bad.
>>
>>
>> come on matt, there's limits to that. vibrations at what frequency?
>> what g's? how much do you want to spend?
>
> Don't be silly... I was responding to the assertion that the
> vibrations help to keep the relay working right. That's just silly -
> if a relay is RELYING on vibrations from the running car to work
> properly, it's either faulty, or a really poor design to begin with.
>
>> besides, it's not vibration that causes the solder to crack - it's
>> thermal cycling.
>
> Or a combination thereof...
>

Actually,IIRC,the vibration stuff was Tegger's guess.

I believe it's that once the car starts and is running,the car interior
(and relay)is cool enough that the solder joints/relay parts have
contracted and make OK contact.I note that often after a 15 minute wait,a
balky starting motor runs,and only fails after another heat soak.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:VO6dneCrj76B2p7YnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...

> the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
>components on the whole vehicle.

These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
process they use. Change the process and the problem is
solved.

 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:VO6dneCrj76B2p7YnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...

> the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
>components on the whole vehicle.

These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
process they use. Change the process and the problem is
solved.

 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns9839DCF67759Fjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84.. .
> Actually,IIRC,the vibration stuff was Tegger's guess.
>
> I believe it's that once the car starts and is running,the car interior
> (and relay)is cool enough that the solder joints/relay parts have
> contracted and make OK contact.I note that often after a 15 minute wait,a
> balky starting motor runs,and only fails after another heat soak.

The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.

 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns9839DCF67759Fjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84.. .
> Actually,IIRC,the vibration stuff was Tegger's guess.
>
> I believe it's that once the car starts and is running,the car interior
> (and relay)is cool enough that the solder joints/relay parts have
> contracted and make OK contact.I note that often after a 15 minute wait,a
> balky starting motor runs,and only fails after another heat soak.

The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.

 

"jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:VO6dneCrj76B2p7YnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...

> the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
>components on the whole vehicle.

These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
process they use. Change the process and the problem is
solved.

 

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message news:Xns9839DCF67759Fjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84.. .
> Actually,IIRC,the vibration stuff was Tegger's guess.
>
> I believe it's that once the car starts and is running,the car interior
> (and relay)is cool enough that the solder joints/relay parts have
> contracted and make OK contact.I note that often after a 15 minute wait,a
> balky starting motor runs,and only fails after another heat soak.

The true question now is what is causing the joints to continue to
make contact on a running car hours after a heat soak.

 

Burt wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:VO6dneCrj76B2p7YnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
>> components on the whole vehicle.
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
with it for some time prior to selling.

regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
[cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
[relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.

life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
just like a repaired relay.

 

Burt wrote:
> "jim beam" <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in message news:VO6dneCrj76B2p7YnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t...
>
>> the design's arguable. it's certainly cheap - one of the lowest quality
>> components on the whole vehicle.
>
> These components are of high quality. They're design to lasts
> maybe 20 years or more. The problem lies on the soldering
> process they use. Change the process and the problem is
> solved.
>
well, mine have never lasted 20 years that's for sure. i'm 6 for 6 on
88-91 civics having this problem. i first encountered it when a vehicle
was only 10 years old, and its previous owner had evidently had problems
with it for some time prior to selling.

regarding solder, this is a soft alloy that operates at a highly
elevated temperature relative to its melting point. expose it to
thermal cycling [the relay runs hot you'll notice] and you have a
problem just waiting to happen. the solution is to either use a
different switching arrangement that doesn't generate as much heat
[cycle] /or/ to use a different jointing method like spot welding or
crimping. but the relay manufacturer should know all this. i still say
this relay is a cheap and cheesy design. the circuit board is low
quality and the relay internals are designed primarily to prevent
intervention, not for serviceability [either kind]. i say mitsuba knew
exactly what they were doing with this relay right from the start
[relays are old technology and their problems are well known] and that
they elected to go for what they knew would result in life limitation.

life limitation is nothing new. i once had a car clock that failed. on
disassembly, i discovered a soft solder rivet had separated breaking the
electrical supply. the interesting thing was, the rivet was held in
tension by a spring! solder [lead] tends to creep over time, especially
when kept warm. life limitation? you bet! there was no other
practical explanation for the rivet/spring combo. a fuse would have
protected against overload and the spring had no mechanical function.
anyway, i soldered a wire in place instead and the clock worked again,
just like a repaired relay.