Idling speed
01-16-2005 | 11:16 PM
#16
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"Howard" <howardh@nospam-cybrstar.com> wrote:
> Had your "cheaper" independent known more about Honda than will admit,
> you
> should have bought and installed a distributor sub-assembly from
> Honda.
> Probably would have cost half as much. A sub-assembly is brand new and
> is
> the distributor body, shaft and pickup with harness. You exchange your
> igniter, cap, rotor and coil (if internal). This would have saved you
> a
> bundle and probably not caused your idle/stalling problem.
I'm going to make a trip to a Honda dealer's part department and ask
for the price of that subassembly. I'd be really surprised if it was
under $500 because one thing I noticed in the past was how expensive
original Honda parts were.
> So much for those "cheap" independents!
Well, this small independent chain is pretty well regarded and many
of them employ former Honda mechanics. This particular store has one
with some 12 years of authorized Honda service background. I must say
that I often found my car running worse after an authorized Honda
service visit than before, despite of the high bills they charge. That
stuck thermostat and worn distributor cap should have been cought by
them at my prior visit and it was not.
So much for expensive "authorized" Honda service.
Rudy
> Had your "cheaper" independent known more about Honda than will admit,
> you
> should have bought and installed a distributor sub-assembly from
> Honda.
> Probably would have cost half as much. A sub-assembly is brand new and
> is
> the distributor body, shaft and pickup with harness. You exchange your
> igniter, cap, rotor and coil (if internal). This would have saved you
> a
> bundle and probably not caused your idle/stalling problem.
I'm going to make a trip to a Honda dealer's part department and ask
for the price of that subassembly. I'd be really surprised if it was
under $500 because one thing I noticed in the past was how expensive
original Honda parts were.
> So much for those "cheap" independents!
Well, this small independent chain is pretty well regarded and many
of them employ former Honda mechanics. This particular store has one
with some 12 years of authorized Honda service background. I must say
that I often found my car running worse after an authorized Honda
service visit than before, despite of the high bills they charge. That
stuck thermostat and worn distributor cap should have been cought by
them at my prior visit and it was not.
So much for expensive "authorized" Honda service.
Rudy
01-16-2005 | 11:16 PM
#17
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"Howard" <howardh@nospam-cybrstar.com> wrote:
> Had your "cheaper" independent known more about Honda than will admit,
> you
> should have bought and installed a distributor sub-assembly from
> Honda.
> Probably would have cost half as much. A sub-assembly is brand new and
> is
> the distributor body, shaft and pickup with harness. You exchange your
> igniter, cap, rotor and coil (if internal). This would have saved you
> a
> bundle and probably not caused your idle/stalling problem.
I'm going to make a trip to a Honda dealer's part department and ask
for the price of that subassembly. I'd be really surprised if it was
under $500 because one thing I noticed in the past was how expensive
original Honda parts were.
> So much for those "cheap" independents!
Well, this small independent chain is pretty well regarded and many
of them employ former Honda mechanics. This particular store has one
with some 12 years of authorized Honda service background. I must say
that I often found my car running worse after an authorized Honda
service visit than before, despite of the high bills they charge. That
stuck thermostat and worn distributor cap should have been cought by
them at my prior visit and it was not.
So much for expensive "authorized" Honda service.
Rudy
> Had your "cheaper" independent known more about Honda than will admit,
> you
> should have bought and installed a distributor sub-assembly from
> Honda.
> Probably would have cost half as much. A sub-assembly is brand new and
> is
> the distributor body, shaft and pickup with harness. You exchange your
> igniter, cap, rotor and coil (if internal). This would have saved you
> a
> bundle and probably not caused your idle/stalling problem.
I'm going to make a trip to a Honda dealer's part department and ask
for the price of that subassembly. I'd be really surprised if it was
under $500 because one thing I noticed in the past was how expensive
original Honda parts were.
> So much for those "cheap" independents!
Well, this small independent chain is pretty well regarded and many
of them employ former Honda mechanics. This particular store has one
with some 12 years of authorized Honda service background. I must say
that I often found my car running worse after an authorized Honda
service visit than before, despite of the high bills they charge. That
stuck thermostat and worn distributor cap should have been cought by
them at my prior visit and it was not.
So much for expensive "authorized" Honda service.
Rudy
01-16-2005 | 11:42 PM
#18
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Z_WdnS-jj_xwv3fcRVn-ow@comcast.com...
> I finally made the move from the expensive Honda dealer service to an
> independent chain specializing in Japanese cars. I have mixed feelings
> about it because it did not cost me less than a typical dealer service,
> but about half the cost was due to a replacement of the distributor
> assembly that cost me $400 even though it was a rebuilt Delco model .
> Is this reasonable? I was told a new original from Honda could cost me
> $500-600. From what I figure a rebuilt one that's not even from Honda,
> should not cost more than about half of the cost of a new Honda brand,
> but what do I know? The reason for replacement was that the oil was
> seeping through it, so it was probably just a bad oil seal.
>
> A smaller problem was in the distributor cap where the center carbon rod
> was burned out and there was not even a solid contact between the top
> and the bottom center. Interestingly though I never noticed any problem
> with ignition before. Now I wonder if I was shown my own original
> distributor cap when I wanted to see it.
>
> The car seems to run better now, especially because they also replaced
> the thermostat that was stuck open before which I believe because the
> temp gage used to show no warming for quite a long time. Now it looks
> normal.
>
> The only thing that is worse now than before is the idling speed (aound
> 700) that seems too low and I stall often during starting. If I recall
> the idle speed used to be around 1,000 RPM before. Is it easy to adjust
> or I'm going to have to make another appointment with that shop?
> The car is a '94 Accord LX.
>
> Rudy
>
>
Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a sticker on
the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If memory
serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of tranny.
At least my 2000 civic was like that. You may want to check that sticker to
see what Honda says your engine should be idling at. Keep in mind, these
are the warm idle speeds so if it's cold, it should idle higher and
gradually come down to the recommended speed as the engine warms up.
01-16-2005 | 11:42 PM
#19
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Z_WdnS-jj_xwv3fcRVn-ow@comcast.com...
> I finally made the move from the expensive Honda dealer service to an
> independent chain specializing in Japanese cars. I have mixed feelings
> about it because it did not cost me less than a typical dealer service,
> but about half the cost was due to a replacement of the distributor
> assembly that cost me $400 even though it was a rebuilt Delco model .
> Is this reasonable? I was told a new original from Honda could cost me
> $500-600. From what I figure a rebuilt one that's not even from Honda,
> should not cost more than about half of the cost of a new Honda brand,
> but what do I know? The reason for replacement was that the oil was
> seeping through it, so it was probably just a bad oil seal.
>
> A smaller problem was in the distributor cap where the center carbon rod
> was burned out and there was not even a solid contact between the top
> and the bottom center. Interestingly though I never noticed any problem
> with ignition before. Now I wonder if I was shown my own original
> distributor cap when I wanted to see it.
>
> The car seems to run better now, especially because they also replaced
> the thermostat that was stuck open before which I believe because the
> temp gage used to show no warming for quite a long time. Now it looks
> normal.
>
> The only thing that is worse now than before is the idling speed (aound
> 700) that seems too low and I stall often during starting. If I recall
> the idle speed used to be around 1,000 RPM before. Is it easy to adjust
> or I'm going to have to make another appointment with that shop?
> The car is a '94 Accord LX.
>
> Rudy
>
>
Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a sticker on
the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If memory
serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of tranny.
At least my 2000 civic was like that. You may want to check that sticker to
see what Honda says your engine should be idling at. Keep in mind, these
are the warm idle speeds so if it's cold, it should idle higher and
gradually come down to the recommended speed as the engine warms up.
01-17-2005 | 08:41 AM
#20
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in news:kqWdnWqZnKbOpHbcRVn-
vQ@comcast.com:
>
> Perhaps I am mistaking that notch on the odometer for 750 when it's only
> 500 or 600.
>
How many notches up from zero is it?
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
vQ@comcast.com:
>
> Perhaps I am mistaking that notch on the odometer for 750 when it's only
> 500 or 600.
>
How many notches up from zero is it?
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
01-17-2005 | 08:41 AM
#21
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in news:kqWdnWqZnKbOpHbcRVn-
vQ@comcast.com:
>
> Perhaps I am mistaking that notch on the odometer for 750 when it's only
> 500 or 600.
>
How many notches up from zero is it?
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
vQ@comcast.com:
>
> Perhaps I am mistaking that notch on the odometer for 750 when it's only
> 500 or 600.
>
How many notches up from zero is it?
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
01-17-2005 | 01:32 PM
#22
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"TeGGer®" <tegger@istop.c0m> wrote:
> How many notches up from zero is it?
There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
notch.
Rudy
> How many notches up from zero is it?
There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
notch.
Rudy
01-17-2005 | 01:32 PM
#23
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"TeGGer®" <tegger@istop.c0m> wrote:
> How many notches up from zero is it?
There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
notch.
Rudy
> How many notches up from zero is it?
There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
notch.
Rudy
01-17-2005 | 01:47 PM
#24
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"Sean D" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
> sticker on
> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
> memory
> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
> tranny.
It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
assumed, though I remember that the Honda shop used to set it higher
before.
Rudy
> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
> sticker on
> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
> memory
> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
> tranny.
It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
assumed, though I remember that the Honda shop used to set it higher
before.
Rudy
01-17-2005 | 01:47 PM
#25
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"Sean D" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
> sticker on
> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
> memory
> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
> tranny.
It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
assumed, though I remember that the Honda shop used to set it higher
before.
Rudy
> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
> sticker on
> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
> memory
> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
> tranny.
It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
assumed, though I remember that the Honda shop used to set it higher
before.
Rudy
01-17-2005 | 02:11 PM
#26
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in news:0JudnRf9LMBPmXHcRVn-
2g@comcast.com:
> "TeGGer®" <tegger@istop.c0m> wrote:
>> How many notches up from zero is it?
>
> There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
> the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
> thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
> notch.
>
Sounds like 750rpm. The lowest mark up from zero is 500. The warm idle
setting for your car is probably 750rpm +/- 50 rpm.
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
2g@comcast.com:
> "TeGGer®" <tegger@istop.c0m> wrote:
>> How many notches up from zero is it?
>
> There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
> the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
> thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
> notch.
>
Sounds like 750rpm. The lowest mark up from zero is 500. The warm idle
setting for your car is probably 750rpm +/- 50 rpm.
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
01-17-2005 | 02:11 PM
#27
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in news:0JudnRf9LMBPmXHcRVn-
2g@comcast.com:
> "TeGGer®" <tegger@istop.c0m> wrote:
>> How many notches up from zero is it?
>
> There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
> the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
> thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
> notch.
>
Sounds like 750rpm. The lowest mark up from zero is 500. The warm idle
setting for your car is probably 750rpm +/- 50 rpm.
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
2g@comcast.com:
> "TeGGer®" <tegger@istop.c0m> wrote:
>> How many notches up from zero is it?
>
> There are only two notches between the 0 and 1000 RPM mark, which, by
> the way, does not seem to be a linear scale; the lower notch is a
> thicker one, the higher one is thiner. It is idling at the higher
> notch.
>
Sounds like 750rpm. The lowest mark up from zero is 500. The warm idle
setting for your car is probably 750rpm +/- 50 rpm.
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
01-17-2005 | 02:12 PM
#28
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in news
JKdneAFsaeklXHcRVn-
oA@comcast.com:
> "Sean D" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
>> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
>> sticker on
>> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
>> memory
>> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
>> tranny.
>
> It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
> be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
> So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
> assumed,
Like I said...
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
JKdneAFsaeklXHcRVn-oA@comcast.com:
> "Sean D" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
>> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
>> sticker on
>> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
>> memory
>> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
>> tranny.
>
> It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
> be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
> So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
> assumed,
Like I said...
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
01-17-2005 | 02:12 PM
#29
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
"R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in newsJKdneAFsaeklXHcRVn-
oA@comcast.com:
> "Sean D" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
>> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
>> sticker on
>> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
>> memory
>> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
>> tranny.
>
> It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
> be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
> So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
> assumed,
Like I said...
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
JKdneAFsaeklXHcRVn-oA@comcast.com:
> "Sean D" <nospam@nospam.ca> wrote:
>> Is your Accord an automatic or manual tranny? There should be a
>> sticker on
>> the inside of the hood that lists the recommended idle speeds. If
>> memory
>> serves me, the idle speeds are different depending on the type of
>> tranny.
>
> It's A/T. I found the idle speed specs for my car and indeed, it should
> be at 700, with 50 RPM + or - tolerance. It's the same for M/T too, BTW.
> So, I guess my problem must be something else, not the low idle I
> assumed,
Like I said...
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
01-17-2005 | 09:38 PM
#30
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Idling speed
Distibutor sub-assembly for your car is $333.54 at the dealer. Go and check
it out.
You'd be surprised at the price of many dealer parts. Check first before you
assume they are more. Also check the difference in quality. I've been burned
by the difference in quality, specifically durability on aftermarket parts.
Some of the chain stores (Napa, Pep Boys) offer lifetime warranty on some
parts like starters and alternators. I've found they need it. You can save
quite a few dollars on some of them, but then how many times do you want to
change a starter motor in the next 4 years. I did it three times. What did I
save? You get what you pay for!
Howard
"Howard" <howardh@nospam-cybrstar.com> wrote in message
news:i6AGd.54320$zy6.36310@bignews5.bellsouth.net. ..
> >Stalling can't be that common a Honda problem. I've >had quite a few
Honda
> cars over the years and none of >them have ever stalled for me, even once.
> Ditto! Never had any one of my 9 Honda's stall.
>
> >abut about half the cost was due to a replacement of the >distributor
> assembly that cost me $400 even though it >was a rebuilt Delco model . Is
> this reasonable? I was >told a new original from Honda could cost me
> $500->600. From what I figure a rebuilt one that's not even >from Honda,"
> Had your "cheaper" independent known more about Honda than will admit, you
> should have bought and installed a distributor sub-assembly from Honda.
> Probably would have cost half as much. A sub-assembly is brand new and is
> the distributor body, shaft and pickup with harness. You exchange your
> igniter, cap, rotor and coil (if internal). This would have saved you a
> bundle and probably not caused your idle/stalling problem.
>
> So much for those "cheap" independents!
>
>
>
>
> "R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Z_WdnS-jj_xwv3fcRVn-ow@comcast.com...
> > I finally made the move from the expensive Honda dealer service to an
> > independent chain specializing in Japanese cars. I have mixed feelings
> > about it because it did not cost me less than a typical dealer service,
> > but about half the cost was due to a replacement of the distributor
> > assembly that cost me $400 even though it was a rebuilt Delco model .
> > Is this reasonable? I was told a new original from Honda could cost me
> > $500-600. From what I figure a rebuilt one that's not even from Honda,
> > should not cost more than about half of the cost of a new Honda brand,
> > but what do I know? The reason for replacement was that the oil was
> > seeping through it, so it was probably just a bad oil seal.
> >
> > A smaller problem was in the distributor cap where the center carbon rod
> > was burned out and there was not even a solid contact between the top
> > and the bottom center. Interestingly though I never noticed any problem
> > with ignition before. Now I wonder if I was shown my own original
> > distributor cap when I wanted to see it.
> >
> > The car seems to run better now, especially because they also replaced
> > the thermostat that was stuck open before which I believe because the
> > temp gage used to show no warming for quite a long time. Now it looks
> > normal.
> >
> > The only thing that is worse now than before is the idling speed (aound
> > 700) that seems too low and I stall often during starting. If I recall
> > the idle speed used to be around 1,000 RPM before. Is it easy to adjust
> > or I'm going to have to make another appointment with that shop?
> > The car is a '94 Accord LX.
> >
> > Rudy
> >
> >
>
>
it out.
You'd be surprised at the price of many dealer parts. Check first before you
assume they are more. Also check the difference in quality. I've been burned
by the difference in quality, specifically durability on aftermarket parts.
Some of the chain stores (Napa, Pep Boys) offer lifetime warranty on some
parts like starters and alternators. I've found they need it. You can save
quite a few dollars on some of them, but then how many times do you want to
change a starter motor in the next 4 years. I did it three times. What did I
save? You get what you pay for!
Howard
"Howard" <howardh@nospam-cybrstar.com> wrote in message
news:i6AGd.54320$zy6.36310@bignews5.bellsouth.net. ..
> >Stalling can't be that common a Honda problem. I've >had quite a few
Honda
> cars over the years and none of >them have ever stalled for me, even once.
> Ditto! Never had any one of my 9 Honda's stall.
>
> >abut about half the cost was due to a replacement of the >distributor
> assembly that cost me $400 even though it >was a rebuilt Delco model . Is
> this reasonable? I was >told a new original from Honda could cost me
> $500->600. From what I figure a rebuilt one that's not even >from Honda,"
> Had your "cheaper" independent known more about Honda than will admit, you
> should have bought and installed a distributor sub-assembly from Honda.
> Probably would have cost half as much. A sub-assembly is brand new and is
> the distributor body, shaft and pickup with harness. You exchange your
> igniter, cap, rotor and coil (if internal). This would have saved you a
> bundle and probably not caused your idle/stalling problem.
>
> So much for those "cheap" independents!
>
>
>
>
> "R. P." <r_pol12gar@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Z_WdnS-jj_xwv3fcRVn-ow@comcast.com...
> > I finally made the move from the expensive Honda dealer service to an
> > independent chain specializing in Japanese cars. I have mixed feelings
> > about it because it did not cost me less than a typical dealer service,
> > but about half the cost was due to a replacement of the distributor
> > assembly that cost me $400 even though it was a rebuilt Delco model .
> > Is this reasonable? I was told a new original from Honda could cost me
> > $500-600. From what I figure a rebuilt one that's not even from Honda,
> > should not cost more than about half of the cost of a new Honda brand,
> > but what do I know? The reason for replacement was that the oil was
> > seeping through it, so it was probably just a bad oil seal.
> >
> > A smaller problem was in the distributor cap where the center carbon rod
> > was burned out and there was not even a solid contact between the top
> > and the bottom center. Interestingly though I never noticed any problem
> > with ignition before. Now I wonder if I was shown my own original
> > distributor cap when I wanted to see it.
> >
> > The car seems to run better now, especially because they also replaced
> > the thermostat that was stuck open before which I believe because the
> > temp gage used to show no warming for quite a long time. Now it looks
> > normal.
> >
> > The only thing that is worse now than before is the idling speed (aound
> > 700) that seems too low and I stall often during starting. If I recall
> > the idle speed used to be around 1,000 RPM before. Is it easy to adjust
> > or I'm going to have to make another appointment with that shop?
> > The car is a '94 Accord LX.
> >
> > Rudy
> >
> >
>
>