Michael Pardee wrote:
> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:FrSdnS3GV8-I3xDfRVn-rw@comcast.com...
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> "Bob" <lester11221@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:htednY58zuDnkRDfRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
>>>> Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids.
>>>> Any brand. Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I have a 2002 Prius. So far (2 1/2 years, 45 K miles) it has been
>>> the most reliable car I've ever owned. Disclaimer: my daughter's '93
>>> Accord has been a clear second, considering it had 8 years and 163K
>>> miles at the time. I've put a couple axles, a timing belt, brakes, a
>>> window regulator and an ignitor in it in 4 years.
>>>
>>> The question of hybrid battery life comes up all the time. The
>>> bottom line is that everybody wonders and practically nobody has had
>>> problems.
>>
>> Well, good news so far, but I have always wondered what will happen
>> 6-10 years from now when batteries need to be replaced in mass. Are
>> they recyclable? If not, will they have to be handled as toxic
>> waste? If so, how environmental friendly is that?
>>
> Toyota already has a program to buy them back for $200 and to recycle
> all the metals. Few batteries probably will ever reach the point
> where they will be replaced though - the battery is expected to last
> the design life of the car. Individual cells can be replaced and the
> hybrid computer even has diagnostics for determining if individual
> cells are performing properly. I expect the overwhelming majority of
> Toyota's hybrid batteries will be sold for the bounty when the cars
> are scrapped if current trends continue. There are 1999 model year
> Prius cars in Japan and their batteries are doing fine.
> Mike

It makes good sense as long as the components can be reused. It would be
interesting to find a site that would break down just what parts are and are
not recyclable. Google...here I come....

 

Michael Pardee wrote:
> "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
> news:FrSdnS3GV8-I3xDfRVn-rw@comcast.com...
>> Michael Pardee wrote:
>>> "Bob" <lester11221@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:htednY58zuDnkRDfRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
>>>> Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids.
>>>> Any brand. Batteries?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I have a 2002 Prius. So far (2 1/2 years, 45 K miles) it has been
>>> the most reliable car I've ever owned. Disclaimer: my daughter's '93
>>> Accord has been a clear second, considering it had 8 years and 163K
>>> miles at the time. I've put a couple axles, a timing belt, brakes, a
>>> window regulator and an ignitor in it in 4 years.
>>>
>>> The question of hybrid battery life comes up all the time. The
>>> bottom line is that everybody wonders and practically nobody has had
>>> problems.
>>
>> Well, good news so far, but I have always wondered what will happen
>> 6-10 years from now when batteries need to be replaced in mass. Are
>> they recyclable? If not, will they have to be handled as toxic
>> waste? If so, how environmental friendly is that?
>>
> Toyota already has a program to buy them back for $200 and to recycle
> all the metals. Few batteries probably will ever reach the point
> where they will be replaced though - the battery is expected to last
> the design life of the car. Individual cells can be replaced and the
> hybrid computer even has diagnostics for determining if individual
> cells are performing properly. I expect the overwhelming majority of
> Toyota's hybrid batteries will be sold for the bounty when the cars
> are scrapped if current trends continue. There are 1999 model year
> Prius cars in Japan and their batteries are doing fine.
> Mike

It makes good sense as long as the components can be reused. It would be
interesting to find a site that would break down just what parts are and are
not recyclable. Google...here I come....

 

"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
news:Y8mdnSOgBP293RLfRVn-3A@comcast.com...
> muzz wrote:
>> It might help you to be aware that even tho the Honda people advertise
>> 48 mpg on the civic hybrid, mine gets 33 in the summer and 34 in the
>> winter after 18 months of conservative driving.
>>
>>
>>> Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids.
>>> Any brand. Batteries?
>
> Are you sure? One can get that with a regular Civic. Not impressive at
> all. Maybe there is something qrong?
>
The benefit of hybrids, especially at the current stage of development,
varies a lot with how the car is used. A Civic hybrid gets only slightly
better fuel economy at freeway speeds than a conventional Civic, and that is
only because the engine was downsized when hybridizing the car. The electric
assist is intended to make up the difference in acceleration, but there are
varying opinions how well that works for the Civic.

Much of the disappointment comes from design considerations. Honda wanted to
compete in fuel economy, and to get the very best economy they started with
a base model that did well to start with. They could have taken the other
path, economical power, as they did with their DualNote concept car... but
I'm sure cost would have popped up on that adventure!

Mike

 

"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
news:Y8mdnSOgBP293RLfRVn-3A@comcast.com...
> muzz wrote:
>> It might help you to be aware that even tho the Honda people advertise
>> 48 mpg on the civic hybrid, mine gets 33 in the summer and 34 in the
>> winter after 18 months of conservative driving.
>>
>>
>>> Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids.
>>> Any brand. Batteries?
>
> Are you sure? One can get that with a regular Civic. Not impressive at
> all. Maybe there is something qrong?
>
The benefit of hybrids, especially at the current stage of development,
varies a lot with how the car is used. A Civic hybrid gets only slightly
better fuel economy at freeway speeds than a conventional Civic, and that is
only because the engine was downsized when hybridizing the car. The electric
assist is intended to make up the difference in acceleration, but there are
varying opinions how well that works for the Civic.

Much of the disappointment comes from design considerations. Honda wanted to
compete in fuel economy, and to get the very best economy they started with
a base model that did well to start with. They could have taken the other
path, economical power, as they did with their DualNote concept car... but
I'm sure cost would have popped up on that adventure!

Mike

 

On Thu, 19 May 2005 19:04:00 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
>news:FrSdnS3GV8-I3xDfRVn-rw@comcast.com...

>Toyota already has a program to buy them back for $200 and to recycle all
>the metals. Few batteries probably will ever reach the point where they will
>be replaced though - the battery is expected to last the design life of the
>car.

All batteries will 'last'. Define 'design life of the car' - 10 years?
less? Batteries degrade on 2 factors, time, and charge. Lead acid
batteries, for instance, degrade at roughly 10% capacity/year, even if
kept in pristine condition. NiMH tend to last around 8-10 years at
most. even if topped up - about the same life as a lead acid kept
optimum. So, according to you, a Prius is only designed to last 8-10
years? sounds like a poor investment to me. I know my 17yo civic's
still going strong. my 16yo volvo is utterly bombproof - nothings
needed doing in the 5 years i've had that, except for the routine
maintainance in the manual. tell me your prius will do that.

> Individual cells can be replaced and the hybrid computer even has
>diagnostics for determining if individual cells are performing properly. I
>expect the overwhelming majority of Toyota's hybrid batteries will be sold
>for the bounty when the cars are scrapped if current trends continue. There
>are 1999 model year Prius cars in Japan and their batteries are doing fine.

99 is only 5 years.Still well within life. I've got a niMH battery in
my MD recorder thats from 97, and thats still going strong, despite
having a hell of a lot more c/d cycles than that prius. 5 years
isNOTHING to a battery. 8-10 is the end of the life, even for the very
best batteries 9which include hawker sbs series, which is around $250
for a 30Ah 12V battery (also the ONLY lead acid batteries, that i'm
aware of, that can be checked into aircraft luggage)

>
>Mike
>

 

On Thu, 19 May 2005 19:04:00 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com> wrote in message
>news:FrSdnS3GV8-I3xDfRVn-rw@comcast.com...

>Toyota already has a program to buy them back for $200 and to recycle all
>the metals. Few batteries probably will ever reach the point where they will
>be replaced though - the battery is expected to last the design life of the
>car.

All batteries will 'last'. Define 'design life of the car' - 10 years?
less? Batteries degrade on 2 factors, time, and charge. Lead acid
batteries, for instance, degrade at roughly 10% capacity/year, even if
kept in pristine condition. NiMH tend to last around 8-10 years at
most. even if topped up - about the same life as a lead acid kept
optimum. So, according to you, a Prius is only designed to last 8-10
years? sounds like a poor investment to me. I know my 17yo civic's
still going strong. my 16yo volvo is utterly bombproof - nothings
needed doing in the 5 years i've had that, except for the routine
maintainance in the manual. tell me your prius will do that.

> Individual cells can be replaced and the hybrid computer even has
>diagnostics for determining if individual cells are performing properly. I
>expect the overwhelming majority of Toyota's hybrid batteries will be sold
>for the bounty when the cars are scrapped if current trends continue. There
>are 1999 model year Prius cars in Japan and their batteries are doing fine.

99 is only 5 years.Still well within life. I've got a niMH battery in
my MD recorder thats from 97, and thats still going strong, despite
having a hell of a lot more c/d cycles than that prius. 5 years
isNOTHING to a battery. 8-10 is the end of the life, even for the very
best batteries 9which include hawker sbs series, which is around $250
for a 30Ah 12V battery (also the ONLY lead acid batteries, that i'm
aware of, that can be checked into aircraft luggage)

>
>Mike
>

 

On Thu, 19 May 2005 21:56:54 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <R6GdnR15abIOohDfRVn-hw@sedona.net>,
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a 2002 Prius. So far (2 1/2 years, 45 K miles) it has been the most
>> reliable car I've ever owned.
>
>I would hope that for 2.5 years and 45K miles, ANY Toyota would be
>dead-reliable.

You'd think so. Friend bought an 05 camry in december. Its been in the
shop 4 times, including headlight replacement, 3 times to fix the
airbag system (was on its last-lemon-chance) ABS problem This for a
car thats 6 months old, and 14k miles on it.... Oh, i should also
mention that there's already rust on the car (and this is georgia, it
don't rain that much!)

Toyota hasn't been the same since half the management resigned in 01,
and they switched steel suppliers to cheap south american steel
(whereas before, they'd been using high quality turkish steel, at
least for europe)

 

On Thu, 19 May 2005 21:56:54 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
<elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

>In article <R6GdnR15abIOohDfRVn-hw@sedona.net>,
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a 2002 Prius. So far (2 1/2 years, 45 K miles) it has been the most
>> reliable car I've ever owned.
>
>I would hope that for 2.5 years and 45K miles, ANY Toyota would be
>dead-reliable.

You'd think so. Friend bought an 05 camry in december. Its been in the
shop 4 times, including headlight replacement, 3 times to fix the
airbag system (was on its last-lemon-chance) ABS problem This for a
car thats 6 months old, and 14k miles on it.... Oh, i should also
mention that there's already rust on the car (and this is georgia, it
don't rain that much!)

Toyota hasn't been the same since half the management resigned in 01,
and they switched steel suppliers to cheap south american steel
(whereas before, they'd been using high quality turkish steel, at
least for europe)

 

Yes - I've had it back to the dealer twice - computer showed no
problem - the second time the service manager asked me
"well, just what mileage would you expect anyway?" I told him
I didn't expect 48 but thought low 40s should be expected.
He had no answer to that - as far as how the car is driven, when
it says 48 city, most people would assume normal around the
town driving would do. I did get 40 on a 2000 mile round trip
on the interstate last summer, just to see what it would do - of
course we don't usually take the civic on long trips, so that
figure is pretty redundant.




On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:05:20 -0700, "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com>
wrote:

>muzz wrote:
>> It might help you to be aware that even tho the Honda people advertise
>> 48 mpg on the civic hybrid, mine gets 33 in the summer and 34 in the
>> winter after 18 months of conservative driving.
>>
>>
>>> Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids.
>>> Any brand. Batteries?
>
>Are you sure? One can get that with a regular Civic. Not impressive at
>all. Maybe there is something qrong?
>

 

Yes - I've had it back to the dealer twice - computer showed no
problem - the second time the service manager asked me
"well, just what mileage would you expect anyway?" I told him
I didn't expect 48 but thought low 40s should be expected.
He had no answer to that - as far as how the car is driven, when
it says 48 city, most people would assume normal around the
town driving would do. I did get 40 on a 2000 mile round trip
on the interstate last summer, just to see what it would do - of
course we don't usually take the civic on long trips, so that
figure is pretty redundant.




On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:05:20 -0700, "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com>
wrote:

>muzz wrote:
>> It might help you to be aware that even tho the Honda people advertise
>> 48 mpg on the civic hybrid, mine gets 33 in the summer and 34 in the
>> winter after 18 months of conservative driving.
>>
>>
>>> Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids.
>>> Any brand. Batteries?
>
>Are you sure? One can get that with a regular Civic. Not impressive at
>all. Maybe there is something qrong?
>

 

"K`Tetch" <no.email@here.for.you> wrote in message
news:21nu819csdqso8utcmsjbf5ekgh0eohd5j@4ax.com...
> All batteries will 'last'. Define 'design life of the car' - 10 years?
> less? Batteries degrade on 2 factors, time, and charge. Lead acid
> batteries, for instance, degrade at roughly 10% capacity/year, even if
> kept in pristine condition. NiMH tend to last around 8-10 years at
> most. even if topped up - about the same life as a lead acid kept
> optimum. So, according to you, a Prius is only designed to last 8-10
> years? sounds like a poor investment to me. I know my 17yo civic's
> still going strong. my 16yo volvo is utterly bombproof - nothings
> needed doing in the 5 years i've had that, except for the routine
> maintainance in the manual. tell me your prius will do that.
>
Battery life is most strongly dependent on operating conditions. The flooded
lead-acids in our communication sites at work have a typical life of 20-30
years, and most of those are taken out of service with the capacity still
within specs (our battery guys load test them twice a year). They usually
fail because the positive terminal has "grown" out of the case. I guess
there is a chemical explanation for that phenomenon, but I don't know it.
Anyway, the NiMH main battery in the Prius is kept within a relatively
narrow range of state-of-charge, temperature controlled, and with charge and
discharge rates limited. It should be good for the life of the car, as
Toyota says. 15 to 20 years should be about right. I would be as surprised
at failures within 10 years as I would at lasting to 30 years. Toyota is
betting their own money there will be negligible failures before 8
years/100K miles (10 years/150K in California, IIRC), so I feel comfortable.
More than that, Toyota's credibility would suffer horribly if there were
such a rash of failures, and I won't insult Toyota's leadership by
suggesting they are that reckless. I think it's more likely they know
exactly what they are doing - a lesson our stateside companies should learn.

What is the design life of a car? Only Rolls Royce has had the nerve to
advertise that; they used to advertise 50 years. The standard in America was
implicitly 10 years for a very long time. Most quality cars, like Honda and
Toyota, are probably around 15 years - certainly more than 10, certainly
less than 20. Your Volvo and mine (an '85 765T) also had design lives in
that range. There is no percentage in making a car last 20 years, and 10
years builds a reputation for schlock (like GM, Ford and Chrysler have), so
the 15 year target is the sweet spot. It didn't work out well for my '85,
which has the French wiring that had a 5 year life, but that's life. At
least yours was built after the biodegradable wiring era.

The central point is that every individual car reaches the end of its life
sometime. It may be an untimely end in a collision, but more often it needs
a repair that the car is no longer worth. For my last Volvo, a 1970 145, it
was when the car was no longer worth putting a water pump in. (I never
thought to question what the life of the water pump is.) This '85 won't
survive its first turbo failure - at 235K miles it is overdue. I had a 1970
Mercury Capri that was no longer worth a U-joint, which was integral with
the drive shaft. It's always something. With the Prius it is very unlikely
in my estimation that battery failure will be a significant factor. I expect
at least 15 years from the car, and I expect the battery will still be
servicable at that point. If you feel differently, you'd be wise not to buy
one.

Mike

 

"K`Tetch" <no.email@here.for.you> wrote in message
news:21nu819csdqso8utcmsjbf5ekgh0eohd5j@4ax.com...
> All batteries will 'last'. Define 'design life of the car' - 10 years?
> less? Batteries degrade on 2 factors, time, and charge. Lead acid
> batteries, for instance, degrade at roughly 10% capacity/year, even if
> kept in pristine condition. NiMH tend to last around 8-10 years at
> most. even if topped up - about the same life as a lead acid kept
> optimum. So, according to you, a Prius is only designed to last 8-10
> years? sounds like a poor investment to me. I know my 17yo civic's
> still going strong. my 16yo volvo is utterly bombproof - nothings
> needed doing in the 5 years i've had that, except for the routine
> maintainance in the manual. tell me your prius will do that.
>
Battery life is most strongly dependent on operating conditions. The flooded
lead-acids in our communication sites at work have a typical life of 20-30
years, and most of those are taken out of service with the capacity still
within specs (our battery guys load test them twice a year). They usually
fail because the positive terminal has "grown" out of the case. I guess
there is a chemical explanation for that phenomenon, but I don't know it.
Anyway, the NiMH main battery in the Prius is kept within a relatively
narrow range of state-of-charge, temperature controlled, and with charge and
discharge rates limited. It should be good for the life of the car, as
Toyota says. 15 to 20 years should be about right. I would be as surprised
at failures within 10 years as I would at lasting to 30 years. Toyota is
betting their own money there will be negligible failures before 8
years/100K miles (10 years/150K in California, IIRC), so I feel comfortable.
More than that, Toyota's credibility would suffer horribly if there were
such a rash of failures, and I won't insult Toyota's leadership by
suggesting they are that reckless. I think it's more likely they know
exactly what they are doing - a lesson our stateside companies should learn.

What is the design life of a car? Only Rolls Royce has had the nerve to
advertise that; they used to advertise 50 years. The standard in America was
implicitly 10 years for a very long time. Most quality cars, like Honda and
Toyota, are probably around 15 years - certainly more than 10, certainly
less than 20. Your Volvo and mine (an '85 765T) also had design lives in
that range. There is no percentage in making a car last 20 years, and 10
years builds a reputation for schlock (like GM, Ford and Chrysler have), so
the 15 year target is the sweet spot. It didn't work out well for my '85,
which has the French wiring that had a 5 year life, but that's life. At
least yours was built after the biodegradable wiring era.

The central point is that every individual car reaches the end of its life
sometime. It may be an untimely end in a collision, but more often it needs
a repair that the car is no longer worth. For my last Volvo, a 1970 145, it
was when the car was no longer worth putting a water pump in. (I never
thought to question what the life of the water pump is.) This '85 won't
survive its first turbo failure - at 235K miles it is overdue. I had a 1970
Mercury Capri that was no longer worth a U-joint, which was integral with
the drive shaft. It's always something. With the Prius it is very unlikely
in my estimation that battery failure will be a significant factor. I expect
at least 15 years from the car, and I expect the battery will still be
servicable at that point. If you feel differently, you'd be wise not to buy
one.

Mike

 

On Sat, 21 May 2005 12:44:59 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"K`Tetch" <no.email@here.for.you> wrote in message
>news:21nu819csdqso8utcmsjbf5ekgh0eohd5j@4ax.com.. .
>> All batteries will 'last'. Define 'design life of the car' - 10 years?
>> less? Batteries degrade on 2 factors, time, and charge. Lead acid
>> batteries, for instance, degrade at roughly 10% capacity/year, even if
>> kept in pristine condition. NiMH tend to last around 8-10 years at
>> most. even if topped up - about the same life as a lead acid kept
>> optimum. So, according to you, a Prius is only designed to last 8-10
>> years? sounds like a poor investment to me. I know my 17yo civic's
>> still going strong. my 16yo volvo is utterly bombproof - nothings
>> needed doing in the 5 years i've had that, except for the routine
>> maintainance in the manual. tell me your prius will do that.
>>
>Battery life is most strongly dependent on operating conditions. The flooded
>lead-acids in our communication sites at work have a typical life of 20-30
>years, and most of those are taken out of service with the capacity still
>within specs (our battery guys load test them twice a year).

Then you have a very low level requirement. Its slightly erring on the
cautious side to say that lead acid capacity decreases at 10%/year
However, after 10 years, you're left at 35% capacity. oh, the load
will still be ok, but the caacity will be shot to hell. The growing
terminals are the exact same reason that the capacity drops - chemical
action.That 35% is also some eavy rounding. after 20 years, you're at
11-12% capacity. This is, as i remind you, keeping th batteries in
their optimum condition.treat them sub-optimally and they won't do
half as well.


>They usually
>fail because the positive terminal has "grown" out of the case. I guess
>there is a chemical explanation for that phenomenon, but I don't know it.
>Anyway, the NiMH main battery in the Prius is kept within a relatively
>narrow range of state-of-charge, temperature controlled, and with charge and
>discharge rates limited. It should be good for the life of the car, as
>Toyota says. 15 to 20 years should be about right. I would be as surprised
>at failures within 10 years as I would at lasting to 30 years. Toyota is
>betting their own money there will be negligible failures before 8
>years/100K miles (10 years/150K in California, IIRC), so I feel comfortable.
>More than that, Toyota's credibility would suffer horribly if there were
>such a rash of failures, and I won't insult Toyota's leadership by
>suggesting they are that reckless. I think it's more likely they know
>exactly what they are doing - a lesson our stateside companies should learn.

Toyota has very little credability with me anyway, but then, are you
SURE its their money they're bettingwith? there's a long running
dispute between toyota and pastafont steel, for instance, where toyota
owes pastafont some $5m for steel its not paid for.
$5million+interest over 5 years buys a lot of hybrid battery sets. If,
however, your batteries are claimed to last 10 years, i'd be very
interseted ina bout 10 sets of them (I build Electrically powered
vehicles as a hobby) so i've contacted Matsushita, since this kind of
longevity is something Saft hasn't been able to give me with their
12Ah Sub-F cells (nice cells, especially the max discharge of
100A/cell, which moves the bottleneck to the controllers - a 1500A
150V controller isn't as easy to build as you might think - for those
that aren't up on your maths, thats about 300Hp, less losses to
efficiency)

 

On Sat, 21 May 2005 12:44:59 -0700, "Michael Pardee"
<michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:

>"K`Tetch" <no.email@here.for.you> wrote in message
>news:21nu819csdqso8utcmsjbf5ekgh0eohd5j@4ax.com.. .
>> All batteries will 'last'. Define 'design life of the car' - 10 years?
>> less? Batteries degrade on 2 factors, time, and charge. Lead acid
>> batteries, for instance, degrade at roughly 10% capacity/year, even if
>> kept in pristine condition. NiMH tend to last around 8-10 years at
>> most. even if topped up - about the same life as a lead acid kept
>> optimum. So, according to you, a Prius is only designed to last 8-10
>> years? sounds like a poor investment to me. I know my 17yo civic's
>> still going strong. my 16yo volvo is utterly bombproof - nothings
>> needed doing in the 5 years i've had that, except for the routine
>> maintainance in the manual. tell me your prius will do that.
>>
>Battery life is most strongly dependent on operating conditions. The flooded
>lead-acids in our communication sites at work have a typical life of 20-30
>years, and most of those are taken out of service with the capacity still
>within specs (our battery guys load test them twice a year).

Then you have a very low level requirement. Its slightly erring on the
cautious side to say that lead acid capacity decreases at 10%/year
However, after 10 years, you're left at 35% capacity. oh, the load
will still be ok, but the caacity will be shot to hell. The growing
terminals are the exact same reason that the capacity drops - chemical
action.That 35% is also some eavy rounding. after 20 years, you're at
11-12% capacity. This is, as i remind you, keeping th batteries in
their optimum condition.treat them sub-optimally and they won't do
half as well.


>They usually
>fail because the positive terminal has "grown" out of the case. I guess
>there is a chemical explanation for that phenomenon, but I don't know it.
>Anyway, the NiMH main battery in the Prius is kept within a relatively
>narrow range of state-of-charge, temperature controlled, and with charge and
>discharge rates limited. It should be good for the life of the car, as
>Toyota says. 15 to 20 years should be about right. I would be as surprised
>at failures within 10 years as I would at lasting to 30 years. Toyota is
>betting their own money there will be negligible failures before 8
>years/100K miles (10 years/150K in California, IIRC), so I feel comfortable.
>More than that, Toyota's credibility would suffer horribly if there were
>such a rash of failures, and I won't insult Toyota's leadership by
>suggesting they are that reckless. I think it's more likely they know
>exactly what they are doing - a lesson our stateside companies should learn.

Toyota has very little credability with me anyway, but then, are you
SURE its their money they're bettingwith? there's a long running
dispute between toyota and pastafont steel, for instance, where toyota
owes pastafont some $5m for steel its not paid for.
$5million+interest over 5 years buys a lot of hybrid battery sets. If,
however, your batteries are claimed to last 10 years, i'd be very
interseted ina bout 10 sets of them (I build Electrically powered
vehicles as a hobby) so i've contacted Matsushita, since this kind of
longevity is something Saft hasn't been able to give me with their
12Ah Sub-F cells (nice cells, especially the max discharge of
100A/cell, which moves the bottleneck to the controllers - a 1500A
150V controller isn't as easy to build as you might think - for those
that aren't up on your maths, thats about 300Hp, less losses to
efficiency)

 

muzz wrote:
> Yes - I've had it back to the dealer twice - computer showed no
> problem - the second time the service manager asked me
> "well, just what mileage would you expect anyway?" I told him
> I didn't expect 48 but thought low 40s should be expected.
> He had no answer to that - as far as how the car is driven, when
> it says 48 city, most people would assume normal around the
> town driving would do. I did get 40 on a 2000 mile round trip
> on the interstate last summer, just to see what it would do - of
> course we don't usually take the civic on long trips, so that
> figure is pretty redundant.
>

Dissapointing to say the least.... :-(

>
>
>
> On Sat, 21 May 2005 07:05:20 -0700, "L Alpert" <alpertl@xxgmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> muzz wrote:
>>> It might help you to be aware that even tho the Honda people
>>> advertise 48 mpg on the civic hybrid, mine gets 33 in the summer
>>> and 34 in the winter after 18 months of conservative driving.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Does anyone have any info on the long-term reliability of hybrids.
>>>> Any brand. Batteries?
>>
>> Are you sure? One can get that with a regular Civic. Not
>> impressive at all. Maybe there is something qrong?