Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
on liquid H2 (or is it H?).

What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?




--

 

Waiving the right to remain silent, cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart)
said:

> Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
> on liquid H2 (or is it H?).
>
> What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?

" Most of the hydrogen produced today is consumed on site, such as at an oil
refinery, and is not sold on the market. From large-scale production,
hydrogen costs $0.32/lb if it is consumed on site. When hydrogen is sold on
the market, the cost of liquefying the hydrogen and transporting it to the
user must be added to the production cost. This can increase the selling
price to $1.00 - 1.40/lb for delivered liquid hydrogen. Some users who
require relatively small amounts of very pure hydrogen (such as the
electronics industry) may use electrolyzers to produce high-purity hydrogen
at their facilities. The cost of this hydrogen, which depends on the cost of
the electricity used to split the water, is typically $1.00 - $2.00/lb."

http://www.powernova.com/hydro/faqs.html#06

--
Larry J. - Remove spamtrap in ALLCAPS to e-mail

"A lack of common sense is now considered a disability,
with all the privileges that this entails."

 

On 27 Mar 2008 20:10:43 GMT, M.A. Stewart <cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
>on liquid H2 (or is it H?).

>What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?

If you have to know how much it costs then you can't afford it.
Probably around a thousand dollars a gallon, unsubsidized.




>--

 

Larry in AZ wrote:
> Waiving the right to remain silent, cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart)
> said:
>
>> Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
>> on liquid H2 (or is it H?).
>>
>> What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?
>
> " Most of the hydrogen produced today is consumed on site, such as at an oil
> refinery, and is not sold on the market. From large-scale production,
> hydrogen costs $0.32/lb if it is consumed on site. When hydrogen is sold on
> the market, the cost of liquefying the hydrogen and transporting it to the
> user must be added to the production cost. This can increase the selling
> price to $1.00 - 1.40/lb for delivered liquid hydrogen. Some users who
> require relatively small amounts of very pure hydrogen (such as the
> electronics industry) may use electrolyzers to produce high-purity hydrogen
> at their facilities. The cost of this hydrogen, which depends on the cost of
> the electricity used to split the water, is typically $1.00 - $2.00/lb."
>
> http://www.powernova.com/hydro/faqs.html#06

Interesting post, thanks.

 

So, what is your source of this information? per Honda, it gets closer to
the equivalent of 60 MPG with a range of 270 miles, are you sure your
decimal point is not in the wrong place?

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ll/comparison/
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ked-questions/


"M.A. Stewart" <cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:fsgv03$3in$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
> Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
> on liquid H2 (or is it H?).
>
> What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>

 

Justbob30 wrote:
> So, what is your source of this information? per Honda, it gets closer
> to the equivalent of 60 MPG with a range of 270 miles, are you sure your
> decimal point is not in the wrong place?
>
> http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ll/comparison/
> http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ked-questions/

I don't see where either say the vehicle gets 60 MPG. Rather, one graph
says it has 60% efficiency, which means 60% of the energy in the
hydrogen is converted to motion compared to about 20% in a gasoline engine.

In the NY Times article
(http://automobiles.honda.com/images/...s/NY_TIMES.pdf) it
does say that it gets the equivalent of 68 MPG, meaning that it goes 69
miles on amount of energy as there is in a gallon of gasoline.

> "M.A. Stewart" <cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
> news:fsgv03$3in$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
>> Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
>> on liquid H2 (or is it H?).
>>
>> What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>

 

Jeff (kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com) writes:
> Justbob30 wrote:
>> So, what is your source of this information? per Honda, it gets closer
>> to the equivalent of 60 MPG with a range of 270 miles, are you sure your
>> decimal point is not in the wrong place?
>>
>> http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ll/comparison/
>> http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ked-questions/
>
> I don't see where either say the vehicle gets 60 MPG. Rather, one graph
> says it has 60% efficiency, which means 60% of the energy in the
> hydrogen is converted to motion compared to about 20% in a gasoline engine.
>
> In the NY Times article
> (http://automobiles.honda.com/images/...s/NY_TIMES.pdf) it
> does say that it gets the equivalent of 68 MPG, meaning that it goes 69
> miles on amount of energy as there is in a gallon of gasoline.
>
>> "M.A. Stewart" <cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
>> news:fsgv03$3in$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
>>> Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
>>> on liquid H2 (or is it H?).
>>>
>>> What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>


I got the information from a Canadian magazine called 'Driven'.
It's a glossy, overpriced, psuedo car magazine. The Mar. 2008
edition on page 69 states a 171 litre fuel tank with a 435 kilometre
range. That works out to 5.97 MPG (U.S.).

171 L = 45.178 U.S. Gal

435 Km = 269.7 miles

Did the mag mess up?

What's a gallon of H2 cost?



--

 

M.A. Stewart wrote:
> Jeff (kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com) writes:
>> Justbob30 wrote:
>>> So, what is your source of this information? per Honda, it gets closer
>>> to the equivalent of 60 MPG with a range of 270 miles, are you sure your
>>> decimal point is not in the wrong place?
>>>
>>> http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ll/comparison/
>>> http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ked-questions/
>> I don't see where either say the vehicle gets 60 MPG. Rather, one graph
>> says it has 60% efficiency, which means 60% of the energy in the
>> hydrogen is converted to motion compared to about 20% in a gasoline engine.
>>
>> In the NY Times article
>> (http://automobiles.honda.com/images/...s/NY_TIMES.pdf) it
>> does say that it gets the equivalent of 68 MPG, meaning that it goes 69
>> miles on amount of energy as there is in a gallon of gasoline.
>>
>>> "M.A. Stewart" <cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
>>> news:fsgv03$3in$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
>>>> Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
>>>> on liquid H2 (or is it H?).
>>>>
>>>> What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>
>
> I got the information from a Canadian magazine called 'Driven'.
> It's a glossy, overpriced, psuedo car magazine. The Mar. 2008
> edition on page 69 states a 171 litre fuel tank with a 435 kilometre
> range. That works out to 5.97 MPG (U.S.).
>
> 171 L = 45.178 U.S. Gal
>
> 435 Km = 269.7 miles
>
> Did the mag mess up?
>
> What's a gallon of H2 cost?

Hydrogen is a gas, not a liquid, unless it is real cold. A volume to
volume comparison is meaningless, because if you double the pressure of
the hydrogen gas, you double the amount of hydrogen in gas the hydrogen
tank.

I don't know how much hydrogen costs.

Jeff

>
> -
>
>

 

On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:25:08 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I don't know how much hydrogen costs.

Well, a liquid gallon of hydrogen mixed with oxygen is about two
cents, but that's about 90% oxygen by weight, so say you need ten
gallons of the mixture, for about 20 cents. The separation is the
trick.

J.

 

On Wed, 02 Apr 2008 09:42:33 GMT, JXStern <JXSternChangeX2R@gte.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:25:08 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
>wrote:

>>I don't know how much hydrogen costs.

>Well, a liquid gallon of hydrogen mixed with oxygen is about two
>cents, but that's about 90% oxygen by weight, so say you need ten
>gallons of the mixture, for about 20 cents. The separation is the
>trick.

So is the pressurization and containment. Most people aren't interested
in powering thei vehicle with a hefty bag of hydrogen, not capable of
propeling their vehicle a whole 50'.

 

cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:fsronf$844$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:

>
>
> I got the information from a Canadian magazine called 'Driven'.
> It's a glossy, overpriced, psuedo car magazine. The Mar. 2008
> edition on page 69 states a 171 litre fuel tank with a 435 kilometre
> range. That works out to 5.97 MPG (U.S.).
>
> 171 L = 45.178 U.S. Gal
>
> 435 Km = 269.7 miles
>
> Did the mag mess up?
>
> What's a gallon of H2 cost?
>
>

See, this is why that Mars lander crashed...got to get your units right.
Hydrogen is a gas. Your can't have a gallon of, um, gas.

Is 171 liters liquid or compressed gas...was it 171 liters of gas at sea
level?

The Chemistry Guy

 

John Cocktoastin wrote:
> cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
> news:fsronf$844$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:
>
>>
>> I got the information from a Canadian magazine called 'Driven'.
>> It's a glossy, overpriced, psuedo car magazine. The Mar. 2008
>> edition on page 69 states a 171 litre fuel tank with a 435 kilometre
>> range. That works out to 5.97 MPG (U.S.).
>>
>> 171 L = 45.178 U.S. Gal
>>
>> 435 Km = 269.7 miles
>>
>> Did the mag mess up?
>>
>> What's a gallon of H2 cost?
>>
>>
>
> See, this is why that Mars lander crashed...got to get your units right.
> Hydrogen is a gas. Your can't have a gallon of, um, gas.

Well you can. Take a gallon bottle of milk. Drink the milk. You are left
with a gallon of air in the bottle.

> Is 171 liters liquid or compressed gas...was it 171 liters of gas at sea
> level?

IIRC, it was 2500 PSI, which is about 130 times atmospheric pressure.

> The Chemistry Guy

The chemistry guy who knows that gases take up space and can be measured
in gallons or litres (although that is useful unless you know the
temperature and pressure - remember the ideal gas laws?).

Jeff

 

On Mar 31, 6:31 pm, cf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote:
> Jeff (kidsdoc2...@hotmail.com) writes:
> > Justbob30 wrote:
> >> So, what is your source of this information? per Honda, it gets closer
> >> to the equivalent of 60 MPG with a range of 270 miles, are you sure your
> >> decimal point is not in the wrong place?
>
> >>http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ll/comparison/
> >>http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ked-questions/
>
> > I don't see where either say the vehicle gets 60 MPG. Rather, one graph
> > says it has 60% efficiency, which means 60% of the energy in the
> > hydrogen is converted to motion compared to about 20% in a gasoline engine.
>
> > In the NY Times article
> > (http://automobiles.honda.com/images/...s/NY_TIMES.pdf) it
> > does say that it gets the equivalent of 68 MPG, meaning that it goes 69
> > miles on amount of energy as there is in a gallon of gasoline.
>
> >> "M.A. Stewart" <cf...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
> >>news:fsgv03$3in$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
> >>> Yikes... the Honda FCX Clarity (H2 fuel cell) gets 5.97 MPG (U.S. gallon)
> >>> on liquid H2 (or is it H?).
>
> >>> What does a U.S. gallon of hydrogen cost?
>
> >>> --
>
> I got the information from a Canadian magazine called 'Driven'.
> It's a glossy, overpriced, psuedo car magazine. The Mar. 2008
> edition on page 69 states a 171 litre fuel tank with a 435 kilometre
> range. That works out to 5.97 MPG (U.S.).
>
> 171 L = 45.178 U.S. Gal
>
> 435 Km = 269.7 miles
>
> Did the mag mess up?
>
> What's a gallon of H2 cost?
>
> --

i don't think they ever mentioned about liquid H2 (LH2) to be used in
the Clarity. In fact, storing and transfering LH2 is very dangeous.

I beleive that the car uses compressed gaseous H2 instead. But how
much pressure is needed to store enough H2 for a 270 miles trip?

So i did some calculations based on these premises:

1) the volume ratio, liquid H2 at boiling point to gaseous H2 at
normal temperature, is 1/848
http://www-safety.deas.harvard.edu/s....html#physical

2) the volumetric energy density of LH2 is one quarter of that of
gasoline
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_hydrogen

3) a fuelcells-powered vehicle has three times the energy efficency of
that of a gasoline-powered vehicle.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-cla...ll/comparison/

Now, let's say a gallon of gasoline gives a Honda Accord 35 miles,
then by energy content and engine's efficiency, a gallon of LH2 would
yield (35/4)x3 = 27 miles for a Honda Clarity
Then by volume ratio, i see that i would need 848 gallons of gaseous
H2 to go 27 miles on the Clarity
So to cover a distance of 270 miles, i would need a volume of 848 x
(270/27) = 8,480 gallons of gaseous H2 at standard atmospheric
pressure (1 atm)
Assuming a constant temperature, then by Avogadro's law, to compress
that volume to a fixed 45.2 gal container, a pressure of 8,480/45.2
= 187.6 atm = 2,748 psi is needed.

That looks like doable

 

Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:Xy3Qj.6011$WU.1276@trndny08:

>
> Well you can. Take a gallon bottle of milk. Drink the milk. You are
> left with a gallon of air in the bottle.
>
How many moles is that?

>> Is 171 liters liquid or compressed gas...was it 171 liters of gas at
>> sea level?
>
> IIRC, it was 2500 PSI, which is about 130 times atmospheric pressure.
>
>> The Chemistry Guy
>
> The chemistry guy who knows that gases take up space and can be
> measured in gallons or litres (although that is useful unless you know
> the temperature and pressure - remember the ideal gas laws?).


As you said a 'gallon of <insert name of gaseous element>' is meaningless
without context.