On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:18:43 -0700, Kruse <kruse@kansas.net> wrote:

>The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
>and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
>car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
>the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
>Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>
>Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
>There certainly is in people's minds.

First, JD Powers ia a highly biased source and their survey's are
rarely (never?) statistically valid. This one is no exception.

Second, Iococa deserves what he gets for producing the k-car :-)

 

Selective surveys have always been used to make the payer look good.


"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ybbai.2059$wq.700@trnddc04...
> coachrose13@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 7, 10:03 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> JD Powers is the same company that has been proping up the japanese
>>> companies for the last 15 years...so what is your point.
>>
>> Actually, it's been more like 25 years, only slight less than Consumer
>> Reports. But I understand where your coming from.
>
> If they are just reporting the results of surveys, how can they be
> propping up the Japanese, who won 5 of the 8 awards for trucks and SUVs?

 

Selective surveys have always been used to make the payer look good.


"Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Ybbai.2059$wq.700@trnddc04...
> coachrose13@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Jun 7, 10:03 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> JD Powers is the same company that has been proping up the japanese
>>> companies for the last 15 years...so what is your point.
>>
>> Actually, it's been more like 25 years, only slight less than Consumer
>> Reports. But I understand where your coming from.
>
> If they are just reporting the results of surveys, how can they be
> propping up the Japanese, who won 5 of the 8 awards for trucks and SUVs?

 

Woody wrote:
> Selective surveys have always been used to make the payer look good.
>
>
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Ybbai.2059$wq.700@trnddc04...
>> coachrose13@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Jun 7, 10:03 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> JD Powers is the same company that has been proping up the japanese
>>>> companies for the last 15 years...so what is your point.
>>> Actually, it's been more like 25 years, only slight less than Consumer
>>> Reports. But I understand where your coming from.
>> If they are just reporting the results of surveys, how can they be
>> propping up the Japanese, who won 5 of the 8 awards for trucks and SUVs?

Can you demonstrate that's the case with JD Powers? For example, did the
Vibe get worse reviews than the Matrix?

Jeff

 

Woody wrote:
> Selective surveys have always been used to make the payer look good.
>
>
> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Ybbai.2059$wq.700@trnddc04...
>> coachrose13@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> On Jun 7, 10:03 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> JD Powers is the same company that has been proping up the japanese
>>>> companies for the last 15 years...so what is your point.
>>> Actually, it's been more like 25 years, only slight less than Consumer
>>> Reports. But I understand where your coming from.
>> If they are just reporting the results of surveys, how can they be
>> propping up the Japanese, who won 5 of the 8 awards for trucks and SUVs?

Can you demonstrate that's the case with JD Powers? For example, did the
Vibe get worse reviews than the Matrix?

Jeff

 

still me wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:18:43 -0700, Kruse <kruse@kansas.net> wrote:
>
>> The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
>> and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
>> car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
>> the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
>> Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>>
>> Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
>> There certainly is in people's minds.
>
> First, JD Powers ia a highly biased source and their survey's are
> rarely (never?) statistically valid. This one is no exception.

In your opinion. Can you back this opinion with evidence?

Jeff

> Second, Iococa deserves what he gets for producing the k-car :-)

 

still me wrote:
> On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 20:18:43 -0700, Kruse <kruse@kansas.net> wrote:
>
>> The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
>> and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
>> car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
>> the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
>> Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>>
>> Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
>> There certainly is in people's minds.
>
> First, JD Powers ia a highly biased source and their survey's are
> rarely (never?) statistically valid. This one is no exception.

In your opinion. Can you back this opinion with evidence?

Jeff

> Second, Iococa deserves what he gets for producing the k-car :-)

 

They are not the same car - the Vibe is built in California, the
Matrix in Canada. Who puts it together can make a lot of difference.


On Jun 8, 4:39 am, "80 Knight" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Kruse" <k...@kansas.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1181272723.799854.34510@g4g2000hsf.googlegrou ps.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 8:10 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...07/06/06/AR200...
>
> > Okay, first I'm going to say that SOME of the foreign branded cars
> > make an excellent car and that SOME of the American named cars need a
> > little improvement in quality. Does everybody understand that first
> > sentence? Good. Now bear with me.
>
> > About 20 years ago I was reading about the initial overall quality of
> > two cars. One was a Japanese car and the other was an American car,
> > both of these compared side by side. The Japanese car got rave reviews
> > for initial quality and component fit and the American car had a lot
> > of initial problems and a lot of new car complaints. Now this wasn't
> > just one car verses one car, it was thousands of reviews from both
> > models of cars. Even the owners quotes summed it up real well. "I
> > bought a Japanese car because of the quality that I wanted and I'm
> > glad of my purchase". For the American buyers, a lot of quotes were
> > "As usual, the American car had a lot more problems than if I'd
> > purchased a Japanese car". This article stated that even Lee Iacoca
> > (spelling?), had problems with this statement, because the American
> > car that they were bashing was the Plymouth Laser. Now what was the
> > car that thousands of buyers were praising??
> > It was the Mitsubishi Eclipse..........
>
> > The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
> > and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
> > car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
> > the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
> > Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>
> > Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
> > There certainly is in people's minds.
>
> I read the same type of thing when the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix came
> out. According to the article, the Matrix was gold, and yet the Vibe was
> trash. I guess no one bothered to tell them they were the same cars. Now, if
> I could only find that damned article.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

 

They are not the same car - the Vibe is built in California, the
Matrix in Canada. Who puts it together can make a lot of difference.


On Jun 8, 4:39 am, "80 Knight" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
> "Kruse" <k...@kansas.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1181272723.799854.34510@g4g2000hsf.googlegrou ps.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 7, 8:10 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...07/06/06/AR200...
>
> > Okay, first I'm going to say that SOME of the foreign branded cars
> > make an excellent car and that SOME of the American named cars need a
> > little improvement in quality. Does everybody understand that first
> > sentence? Good. Now bear with me.
>
> > About 20 years ago I was reading about the initial overall quality of
> > two cars. One was a Japanese car and the other was an American car,
> > both of these compared side by side. The Japanese car got rave reviews
> > for initial quality and component fit and the American car had a lot
> > of initial problems and a lot of new car complaints. Now this wasn't
> > just one car verses one car, it was thousands of reviews from both
> > models of cars. Even the owners quotes summed it up real well. "I
> > bought a Japanese car because of the quality that I wanted and I'm
> > glad of my purchase". For the American buyers, a lot of quotes were
> > "As usual, the American car had a lot more problems than if I'd
> > purchased a Japanese car". This article stated that even Lee Iacoca
> > (spelling?), had problems with this statement, because the American
> > car that they were bashing was the Plymouth Laser. Now what was the
> > car that thousands of buyers were praising??
> > It was the Mitsubishi Eclipse..........
>
> > The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
> > and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
> > car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
> > the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
> > Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>
> > Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
> > There certainly is in people's minds.
>
> I read the same type of thing when the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix came
> out. According to the article, the Matrix was gold, and yet the Vibe was
> trash. I guess no one bothered to tell them they were the same cars. Now, if
> I could only find that damned article.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

 

Actually they are the same car, regardless of who put's it together. They
were a joint venture between GM and Toyota.

"Mark" <bogusmailmark@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181318158.846609.56680@w5g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
> They are not the same car - the Vibe is built in California, the
> Matrix in Canada. Who puts it together can make a lot of difference.
>
>
> On Jun 8, 4:39 am, "80 Knight" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> "Kruse" <k...@kansas.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1181272723.799854.34510@g4g2000hsf.googlegrou ps.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 7, 8:10 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...07/06/06/AR200...
>>
>> > Okay, first I'm going to say that SOME of the foreign branded cars
>> > make an excellent car and that SOME of the American named cars need a
>> > little improvement in quality. Does everybody understand that first
>> > sentence? Good. Now bear with me.
>>
>> > About 20 years ago I was reading about the initial overall quality of
>> > two cars. One was a Japanese car and the other was an American car,
>> > both of these compared side by side. The Japanese car got rave reviews
>> > for initial quality and component fit and the American car had a lot
>> > of initial problems and a lot of new car complaints. Now this wasn't
>> > just one car verses one car, it was thousands of reviews from both
>> > models of cars. Even the owners quotes summed it up real well. "I
>> > bought a Japanese car because of the quality that I wanted and I'm
>> > glad of my purchase". For the American buyers, a lot of quotes were
>> > "As usual, the American car had a lot more problems than if I'd
>> > purchased a Japanese car". This article stated that even Lee Iacoca
>> > (spelling?), had problems with this statement, because the American
>> > car that they were bashing was the Plymouth Laser. Now what was the
>> > car that thousands of buyers were praising??
>> > It was the Mitsubishi Eclipse..........
>>
>> > The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
>> > and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
>> > car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
>> > the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
>> > Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>>
>> > Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
>> > There certainly is in people's minds.
>>
>> I read the same type of thing when the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix came
>> out. According to the article, the Matrix was gold, and yet the Vibe was
>> trash. I guess no one bothered to tell them they were the same cars. Now,
>> if
>> I could only find that damned article.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>

 

Actually they are the same car, regardless of who put's it together. They
were a joint venture between GM and Toyota.

"Mark" <bogusmailmark@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1181318158.846609.56680@w5g2000hsg.googlegrou ps.com...
> They are not the same car - the Vibe is built in California, the
> Matrix in Canada. Who puts it together can make a lot of difference.
>
>
> On Jun 8, 4:39 am, "80 Knight" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>> "Kruse" <k...@kansas.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1181272723.799854.34510@g4g2000hsf.googlegrou ps.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jun 7, 8:10 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...07/06/06/AR200...
>>
>> > Okay, first I'm going to say that SOME of the foreign branded cars
>> > make an excellent car and that SOME of the American named cars need a
>> > little improvement in quality. Does everybody understand that first
>> > sentence? Good. Now bear with me.
>>
>> > About 20 years ago I was reading about the initial overall quality of
>> > two cars. One was a Japanese car and the other was an American car,
>> > both of these compared side by side. The Japanese car got rave reviews
>> > for initial quality and component fit and the American car had a lot
>> > of initial problems and a lot of new car complaints. Now this wasn't
>> > just one car verses one car, it was thousands of reviews from both
>> > models of cars. Even the owners quotes summed it up real well. "I
>> > bought a Japanese car because of the quality that I wanted and I'm
>> > glad of my purchase". For the American buyers, a lot of quotes were
>> > "As usual, the American car had a lot more problems than if I'd
>> > purchased a Japanese car". This article stated that even Lee Iacoca
>> > (spelling?), had problems with this statement, because the American
>> > car that they were bashing was the Plymouth Laser. Now what was the
>> > car that thousands of buyers were praising??
>> > It was the Mitsubishi Eclipse..........
>>
>> > The real irony is that these cars were identical in about every way
>> > and even produced in the same factory and they were probably made one
>> > car in front of each other. The only difference between the two were
>> > the make/model badges on the dash and on the bumper. THAT'S what
>> > Iacoca was peeved about, the perception of difference.
>>
>> > Once again, is there a difference? Probably.
>> > There certainly is in people's minds.
>>
>> I read the same type of thing when the Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix came
>> out. According to the article, the Matrix was gold, and yet the Vibe was
>> trash. I guess no one bothered to tell them they were the same cars. Now,
>> if
>> I could only find that damned article.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>

 

80 Knight wrote:
> Actually they are the same car, regardless of who put's it together.

Think about that statement again...

For an example that I'm familiar with, take the Toyota Tacoma. A vehicle
that _is_ the same vehicle, but is assembled in two different plants.
Did you know there have been defects that only affected one plant or the
other? My own early-production '05 Tacoma had an issue that affected
only trucks built in the NUMMI plant before a certain date. Baja-built
trucks didn't have the problem.

Why would you think the Vibe / Matrix would be different?

I'll bet any manufacturer that makes vehicles in multiple locations will
have similar situations.

Defects can be design or assembly defects. Who assembles a product is a
big part of the latter.

 

80 Knight wrote:
> Actually they are the same car, regardless of who put's it together.

Think about that statement again...

For an example that I'm familiar with, take the Toyota Tacoma. A vehicle
that _is_ the same vehicle, but is assembled in two different plants.
Did you know there have been defects that only affected one plant or the
other? My own early-production '05 Tacoma had an issue that affected
only trucks built in the NUMMI plant before a certain date. Baja-built
trucks didn't have the problem.

Why would you think the Vibe / Matrix would be different?

I'll bet any manufacturer that makes vehicles in multiple locations will
have similar situations.

Defects can be design or assembly defects. Who assembles a product is a
big part of the latter.

 

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:25:23 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Woody wrote:
>> Selective surveys have always been used to make the payer look good.
>>
>>
>> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:Ybbai.2059$wq.700@trnddc04...
>>> coachrose13@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Jun 7, 10:03 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> JD Powers is the same company that has been proping up the japanese
>>>>> companies for the last 15 years...so what is your point.
>>>> Actually, it's been more like 25 years, only slight less than Consumer
>>>> Reports. But I understand where your coming from.
>>> If they are just reporting the results of surveys, how can they be
>>> propping up the Japanese, who won 5 of the 8 awards for trucks and SUVs?
>
>Can you demonstrate that's the case with JD Powers? For example, did the
>Vibe get worse reviews than the Matrix?
>
>Jeff

CR reliability data is virtually identical for these two cars with the
Pontiac being rated slightly better in a six areas and slightly worse
in one. (These differences are extremely small and could easily be
due to random error.) Comparing the Vibe to the Grand Am; the Vibe is
better (often much better) in 15 of 16 areas and worse in one.
Conclusion: the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

 

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:25:23 GMT, Jeff <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Woody wrote:
>> Selective surveys have always been used to make the payer look good.
>>
>>
>> "Jeff" <kidsdoc2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:Ybbai.2059$wq.700@trnddc04...
>>> coachrose13@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Jun 7, 10:03 pm, "Huck Flynn" <HF36...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> JD Powers is the same company that has been proping up the japanese
>>>>> companies for the last 15 years...so what is your point.
>>>> Actually, it's been more like 25 years, only slight less than Consumer
>>>> Reports. But I understand where your coming from.
>>> If they are just reporting the results of surveys, how can they be
>>> propping up the Japanese, who won 5 of the 8 awards for trucks and SUVs?
>
>Can you demonstrate that's the case with JD Powers? For example, did the
>Vibe get worse reviews than the Matrix?
>
>Jeff

CR reliability data is virtually identical for these two cars with the
Pontiac being rated slightly better in a six areas and slightly worse
in one. (These differences are extremely small and could easily be
due to random error.) Comparing the Vibe to the Grand Am; the Vibe is
better (often much better) in 15 of 16 areas and worse in one.
Conclusion: the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.