Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

In article <kPadnR-MffcIgkvZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> in the current market, very few people keep a
> car more than 100k, or not first owners, so that's where the attention
> goes - for every manufacturer in the world.

Right.

So for a second owner, where the manufacturer has no interest, a
decrease in oil change intervals is cheap insurance--no matter what the
owner's manual says.

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Andy White wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 12:29:58 +0000, HLS wrote:
>
>
>>"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
>>news:d8421$44d3f692$471fbb8f$9627@ALLTEL.NET.. .
>>That all by itself does not
>>
>>>discredit what you do or what you support - it only says it doesn't offer
>>>enough for me. It may also be that if this discussion actually reached a
>>>level where some sort of empirical evidence was put forth, it might be
>>>obvious that the incremental value of more frequent changes, oil analysis,
>>>etc. simply do not offer a statistically significant benefit.
>>
>>This is the way I feel about oil analyses.
>>There is a real shortage of hard data about how well synthetics and refined
>>petroleum lubricants actually perform.
>
>
> There is not shortage of data.

OK, post a reference to some real data.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Andy White wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 12:29:58 +0000, HLS wrote:
>
>
>>"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
>>news:d8421$44d3f692$471fbb8f$9627@ALLTEL.NET.. .
>>That all by itself does not
>>
>>>discredit what you do or what you support - it only says it doesn't offer
>>>enough for me. It may also be that if this discussion actually reached a
>>>level where some sort of empirical evidence was put forth, it might be
>>>obvious that the incremental value of more frequent changes, oil analysis,
>>>etc. simply do not offer a statistically significant benefit.
>>
>>This is the way I feel about oil analyses.
>>There is a real shortage of hard data about how well synthetics and refined
>>petroleum lubricants actually perform.
>
>
> There is not shortage of data.

OK, post a reference to some real data.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Andy White wrote:

> On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 12:29:58 +0000, HLS wrote:
>
>
>>"Mike Marlow" <mmarlow@alltel.net> wrote in message
>>news:d8421$44d3f692$471fbb8f$9627@ALLTEL.NET.. .
>>That all by itself does not
>>
>>>discredit what you do or what you support - it only says it doesn't offer
>>>enough for me. It may also be that if this discussion actually reached a
>>>level where some sort of empirical evidence was put forth, it might be
>>>obvious that the incremental value of more frequent changes, oil analysis,
>>>etc. simply do not offer a statistically significant benefit.
>>
>>This is the way I feel about oil analyses.
>>There is a real shortage of hard data about how well synthetics and refined
>>petroleum lubricants actually perform.
>
>
> There is not shortage of data.

OK, post a reference to some real data.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>
>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
>
> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
> than oil change intervals.
>
> gerry
>
Could be many short trips and never getting the engine to normal
operating temperature. The condensation from combustion will accumulate
in the oil over time without the opportunity to evaporate off causing
sludge. Had tis happen to a Chrysler 3.3 engine once (caused the
lifters to become oil starved). Switched to Synthetic and not a problem
since.

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>
>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
>
> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
> than oil change intervals.
>
> gerry
>
Could be many short trips and never getting the engine to normal
operating temperature. The condensation from combustion will accumulate
in the oil over time without the opportunity to evaporate off causing
sludge. Had tis happen to a Chrysler 3.3 engine once (caused the
lifters to become oil starved). Switched to Synthetic and not a problem
since.

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>
>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
>
> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
> than oil change intervals.
>
> gerry
>
Could be many short trips and never getting the engine to normal
operating temperature. The condensation from combustion will accumulate
in the oil over time without the opportunity to evaporate off causing
sludge. Had tis happen to a Chrysler 3.3 engine once (caused the
lifters to become oil starved). Switched to Synthetic and not a problem
since.

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>
>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
>
> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
> than oil change intervals.
>
> gerry
>

BTW: What specific engine problem would cause this to occur (except
perhaps a stuck-open thermostat)?

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>
>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
>
> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
> than oil change intervals.
>
> gerry
>

BTW: What specific engine problem would cause this to occur (except
perhaps a stuck-open thermostat)?

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>
>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
>
> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
> than oil change intervals.
>
> gerry
>

BTW: What specific engine problem would cause this to occur (except
perhaps a stuck-open thermostat)?

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/4/2006 10:39 PM ... Matt Whiting wrote:
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article <WNPAg.220$Db4.20522@news1.epix.net>,
>> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>
>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
> Yes, some Toyota engines and one Chrysler engine (the 2.7 as I recall)
> have design errors that cause sludge formation. Frequent oil changes
> have little affect on this, but changing to synthetic helps a lot.
>
> And something is really fishy with this story. I don't believe the 8700
> miles for a second. Even sludge prone engines won't build this much
> sludge in that little mileage. There is more to this than meets the
> eye. I suspect odometer tampering or possibly even an engine swap with
> a high mileage engine in order to use the new one for anothe vehicle.
>
> Matt

Constant short 3-4 mile trips could do it.

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/4/2006 10:39 PM ... Matt Whiting wrote:
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article <WNPAg.220$Db4.20522@news1.epix.net>,
>> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>
>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
> Yes, some Toyota engines and one Chrysler engine (the 2.7 as I recall)
> have design errors that cause sludge formation. Frequent oil changes
> have little affect on this, but changing to synthetic helps a lot.
>
> And something is really fishy with this story. I don't believe the 8700
> miles for a second. Even sludge prone engines won't build this much
> sludge in that little mileage. There is more to this than meets the
> eye. I suspect odometer tampering or possibly even an engine swap with
> a high mileage engine in order to use the new one for anothe vehicle.
>
> Matt

Constant short 3-4 mile trips could do it.

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

> On 8/4/2006 10:39 PM ... Matt Whiting wrote:
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article <WNPAg.220$Db4.20522@news1.epix.net>,
>> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>
>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>
>>
>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>
> Yes, some Toyota engines and one Chrysler engine (the 2.7 as I recall)
> have design errors that cause sludge formation. Frequent oil changes
> have little affect on this, but changing to synthetic helps a lot.
>
> And something is really fishy with this story. I don't believe the 8700
> miles for a second. Even sludge prone engines won't build this much
> sludge in that little mileage. There is more to this than meets the
> eye. I suspect odometer tampering or possibly even an engine swap with
> a high mileage engine in order to use the new one for anothe vehicle.
>
> Matt

Constant short 3-4 mile trips could do it.

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

jcr wrote:
> > On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
>
>> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
>> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>>>
>>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
>> than oil change intervals.
>>
>> gerry
>>
>
> BTW: What specific engine problem would cause this to occur (except
> perhaps a stuck-open thermostat)?

Leaking head gasket allowing coolant into the crankcase. Cracked block
or head allowing same. Many short trips in cold weather.

I don't recall there being a date at this site, but the car was
purportedly a 2001. So, if this occurred just recently, then this car
may have been five years old when the engine was torn down. 8700 miles
over five years, is very little driving. And if this was the original
oil and filter as was suggested, and if this car was driven in a cold
climate, then that would constitute extreme abuse and might well
generage that much sludge.


Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

jcr wrote:
> > On 8/5/2006 10:18 AM ... gerry wrote:
>
>> [original post is likely clipped to save bandwidth]
>> On Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:50:28 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
>> <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <gIQAg.53$z12.35@trndny02>,
>>> Brian Nystrom <brian.nystrom@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Well, but parts can easily fail due to infrequent oil changes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Which parts and how do they fail?
>>>>
>>>> This should be interesting. I can't wait to see his reply... ;-)
>>>
>>> http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Any engine that bad in 8700 miles has something seriously wrong other
>> than oil change intervals.
>>
>> gerry
>>
>
> BTW: What specific engine problem would cause this to occur (except
> perhaps a stuck-open thermostat)?

Leaking head gasket allowing coolant into the crankcase. Cracked block
or head allowing same. Many short trips in cold weather.

I don't recall there being a date at this site, but the car was
purportedly a 2001. So, if this occurred just recently, then this car
may have been five years old when the engine was torn down. 8700 miles
over five years, is very little driving. And if this was the original
oil and filter as was suggested, and if this car was driven in a cold
climate, then that would constitute extreme abuse and might well
generage that much sludge.


Matt