Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <hCTAg.228$Db4.20512@news1.epix.net>,
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>Comparing oil changes to insurance is simply stupid. They aren't
>>equivalent at all. You buy insurance to help when crap happens.
>
>
> In your world, maybe.

In the real world. You compared oil changes to homeowner's insurance.
Now tell us how they compare.

Actually, your analogy argues against your position. Homeowner's
insrurance doesn't protect my home from damage. That suggests that,
based on your own analogy, oil changes don't protect your engeing from
damage.

Got any other arguments or analogies?

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:bNPAg.219$Db4.20066@news1.epix.net...
>
> Are you really going to overhaul a car engine if you see a little extra
> metal? Most folks will just drive it until it quits anyway as the labor
> cost is more than the parts in many cars and the consequences of failure
> are relatively minor. Airplanes are a different matter completely, but
> few people do preventive overhauls on car engines, even with better
> information. I'd personally just run a car engine until it showed serious
> signs of failure even if I had oil analysis evidence that wear was
> unusually high.
>
> Matt

I agree - the question is "what will you do with the information?" My #2 son
had a worn-out Toyota that was giving him intermittent oil pressure
warnings. We considered the situation and decided there was nothing we would
do differently if the oil pressure was failing or if the sensor was failing;
the car wasn't worth the effort to repair any oil problem. It threw a rod a
couple months later, but he had no regrets. A little extreme, but the
principle applies. Don't ask a question if the answer doesn't help you.

Mike

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:bNPAg.219$Db4.20066@news1.epix.net...
>
> Are you really going to overhaul a car engine if you see a little extra
> metal? Most folks will just drive it until it quits anyway as the labor
> cost is more than the parts in many cars and the consequences of failure
> are relatively minor. Airplanes are a different matter completely, but
> few people do preventive overhauls on car engines, even with better
> information. I'd personally just run a car engine until it showed serious
> signs of failure even if I had oil analysis evidence that wear was
> unusually high.
>
> Matt

I agree - the question is "what will you do with the information?" My #2 son
had a worn-out Toyota that was giving him intermittent oil pressure
warnings. We considered the situation and decided there was nothing we would
do differently if the oil pressure was failing or if the sensor was failing;
the car wasn't worth the effort to repair any oil problem. It threw a rod a
couple months later, but he had no regrets. A little extreme, but the
principle applies. Don't ask a question if the answer doesn't help you.

Mike

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

"Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
news:bNPAg.219$Db4.20066@news1.epix.net...
>
> Are you really going to overhaul a car engine if you see a little extra
> metal? Most folks will just drive it until it quits anyway as the labor
> cost is more than the parts in many cars and the consequences of failure
> are relatively minor. Airplanes are a different matter completely, but
> few people do preventive overhauls on car engines, even with better
> information. I'd personally just run a car engine until it showed serious
> signs of failure even if I had oil analysis evidence that wear was
> unusually high.
>
> Matt

I agree - the question is "what will you do with the information?" My #2 son
had a worn-out Toyota that was giving him intermittent oil pressure
warnings. We considered the situation and decided there was nothing we would
do differently if the oil pressure was failing or if the sensor was failing;
the car wasn't worth the effort to repair any oil problem. It threw a rod a
couple months later, but he had no regrets. A little extreme, but the
principle applies. Don't ask a question if the answer doesn't help you.

Mike

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <4NTAg.235$Db4.20752@news1.epix.net>,
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>The closest I've
>>seen to a real-world test is the one that CR did many years ago with a
>>taxi fleet. They found no measurable wear in engines changed at 6,000
>>miles (if memory serves) running plain old dino oil.
>
>
> And when you run your car like a taxi, 24/7 with the engine on, those
> tests will be relevant to you.
>
> If you drive your car like a stay at home mom, a couple miles here and
> there with the engine never getting warm, that would create different
> results.
>
> Did CR test those kinds of conditions?
>
> You can't extrapolate the CR taxi test into the normal world where cars
> aren't run like taxis.

Which is exactly what I said. Did you read past the first two
sentences? I said this test was flawed, but it is the best test I've
seen and at least had some semblance of scientific rigor. You've posted
nothing even close.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <4NTAg.235$Db4.20752@news1.epix.net>,
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>The closest I've
>>seen to a real-world test is the one that CR did many years ago with a
>>taxi fleet. They found no measurable wear in engines changed at 6,000
>>miles (if memory serves) running plain old dino oil.
>
>
> And when you run your car like a taxi, 24/7 with the engine on, those
> tests will be relevant to you.
>
> If you drive your car like a stay at home mom, a couple miles here and
> there with the engine never getting warm, that would create different
> results.
>
> Did CR test those kinds of conditions?
>
> You can't extrapolate the CR taxi test into the normal world where cars
> aren't run like taxis.

Which is exactly what I said. Did you read past the first two
sentences? I said this test was flawed, but it is the best test I've
seen and at least had some semblance of scientific rigor. You've posted
nothing even close.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <4NTAg.235$Db4.20752@news1.epix.net>,
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>The closest I've
>>seen to a real-world test is the one that CR did many years ago with a
>>taxi fleet. They found no measurable wear in engines changed at 6,000
>>miles (if memory serves) running plain old dino oil.
>
>
> And when you run your car like a taxi, 24/7 with the engine on, those
> tests will be relevant to you.
>
> If you drive your car like a stay at home mom, a couple miles here and
> there with the engine never getting warm, that would create different
> results.
>
> Did CR test those kinds of conditions?
>
> You can't extrapolate the CR taxi test into the normal world where cars
> aren't run like taxis.

Which is exactly what I said. Did you read past the first two
sentences? I said this test was flawed, but it is the best test I've
seen and at least had some semblance of scientific rigor. You've posted
nothing even close.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <2HTAg.232$Db4.20766@news1.epix.net>,
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>>Show me that oil changes at 3,000 miles vs.
>>>>10,000 make a difference.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>>
>>I think your cut and paste keys are stuck. This is meaningless and you
>>can't even figure that out.
>
>
> You asked someone to show you something that could break inside the
> engine due to insufficient oil changes. From that page: "If the owner
> had left it long enough, the pickup would eventually have choked on the
> sludge, causing oil starvation and engine seizure."

That is complete conjecture. And that post has enough questionable
things about it to make it meaningless.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <2HTAg.232$Db4.20766@news1.epix.net>,
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>>Show me that oil changes at 3,000 miles vs.
>>>>10,000 make a difference.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>>
>>I think your cut and paste keys are stuck. This is meaningless and you
>>can't even figure that out.
>
>
> You asked someone to show you something that could break inside the
> engine due to insufficient oil changes. From that page: "If the owner
> had left it long enough, the pickup would eventually have choked on the
> sludge, causing oil starvation and engine seizure."

That is complete conjecture. And that post has enough questionable
things about it to make it meaningless.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article <2HTAg.232$Db4.20766@news1.epix.net>,
> Matt Whiting <whiting@epix.net> wrote:
>
>
>>>>Show me that oil changes at 3,000 miles vs.
>>>>10,000 make a difference.
>>>
>>>
>>>http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/sludg...ng_sludge.html
>>
>>I think your cut and paste keys are stuck. This is meaningless and you
>>can't even figure that out.
>
>
> You asked someone to show you something that could break inside the
> engine due to insufficient oil changes. From that page: "If the owner
> had left it long enough, the pickup would eventually have choked on the
> sludge, causing oil starvation and engine seizure."

That is complete conjecture. And that post has enough questionable
things about it to make it meaningless.

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Mike Marlow wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:aFTAg.230$Db4.20774@news1.epix.net...
>
>
>>And why not change oil at 1,000 miles rather than 3,000 as that would
>>reduce wear even more right? How about 500 miles? Why not change it
>>every morning before going to work?
>>
>
>
> What!? You mean your wife does not do this for you now Matt? Man, we gotta
> talk...

Yes, the hardship is great. :-)

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Mike Marlow wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:aFTAg.230$Db4.20774@news1.epix.net...
>
>
>>And why not change oil at 1,000 miles rather than 3,000 as that would
>>reduce wear even more right? How about 500 miles? Why not change it
>>every morning before going to work?
>>
>
>
> What!? You mean your wife does not do this for you now Matt? Man, we gotta
> talk...

Yes, the hardship is great. :-)

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Mike Marlow wrote:

> "Matt Whiting" <whiting@epix.net> wrote in message
> news:aFTAg.230$Db4.20774@news1.epix.net...
>
>
>>And why not change oil at 1,000 miles rather than 3,000 as that would
>>reduce wear even more right? How about 500 miles? Why not change it
>>every morning before going to work?
>>
>
>
> What!? You mean your wife does not do this for you now Matt? Man, we gotta
> talk...

Yes, the hardship is great. :-)

Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Mike Marlow wrote:

> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-C8D037.07192405082006@nntp2.usenetserver.com...
>
>
>>And when you run your car like a taxi, 24/7 with the engine on, those
>>tests will be relevant to you.
>>
>>If you drive your car like a stay at home mom, a couple miles here and
>>there with the engine never getting warm, that would create different
>>results.
>>
>>Did CR test those kinds of conditions?
>>
>>You can't extrapolate the CR taxi test into the normal world where cars
>>aren't run like taxis.
>>
>
>
> Well, between the sludge link posts and this reply, you've pretty much
> proven yourself to be completely in the dark. Here - just for the sake of
> accuracy, I've pasted in that part of Matt's original response to me which
> states exactly what you babble about above. You know the part - it's the
> part you snipped to make your post.
>
> Matt said...
>
> "Now, there were several shortcomings in their test, in my opinion, such
> as taxis don't really represent how most people drive as they rarely get
> thermally cycled and there is reason to believe that cold starts are
> one of the highest wear activities an engine sees. And, again if memory
> serves, they ran the engines for only 60,000 miles. This is hardly a
> stress test for a modern engine.
>
> However, imperfect as it was, this is about the only test I've seen that
> was even close to scientifically conducted."
>
> It pays to read what is posted and to give yourself that extra minute to
> think about it before snipping relevant parts and running off on tangents
> with misrepresentations of what was said.

Only if you have integrity. If you don't have integrity, you do what he
did. Clip the part you like and omit the rest.

I'd really love to see some real data on oil and engine wear and life.
I certainly have my opinions, and I've seen testing that shows
differences in oils, and I believe those differences have an affect on
service life, but I've never found any data to support my opinions or
anyone elses.


Matt

Re: Determining oil change intervals via analysis
 

Mike Marlow wrote:

> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-C8D037.07192405082006@nntp2.usenetserver.com...
>
>
>>And when you run your car like a taxi, 24/7 with the engine on, those
>>tests will be relevant to you.
>>
>>If you drive your car like a stay at home mom, a couple miles here and
>>there with the engine never getting warm, that would create different
>>results.
>>
>>Did CR test those kinds of conditions?
>>
>>You can't extrapolate the CR taxi test into the normal world where cars
>>aren't run like taxis.
>>
>
>
> Well, between the sludge link posts and this reply, you've pretty much
> proven yourself to be completely in the dark. Here - just for the sake of
> accuracy, I've pasted in that part of Matt's original response to me which
> states exactly what you babble about above. You know the part - it's the
> part you snipped to make your post.
>
> Matt said...
>
> "Now, there were several shortcomings in their test, in my opinion, such
> as taxis don't really represent how most people drive as they rarely get
> thermally cycled and there is reason to believe that cold starts are
> one of the highest wear activities an engine sees. And, again if memory
> serves, they ran the engines for only 60,000 miles. This is hardly a
> stress test for a modern engine.
>
> However, imperfect as it was, this is about the only test I've seen that
> was even close to scientifically conducted."
>
> It pays to read what is posted and to give yourself that extra minute to
> think about it before snipping relevant parts and running off on tangents
> with misrepresentations of what was said.

Only if you have integrity. If you don't have integrity, you do what he
did. Clip the part you like and omit the rest.

I'd really love to see some real data on oil and engine wear and life.
I certainly have my opinions, and I've seen testing that shows
differences in oils, and I believe those differences have an affect on
service life, but I've never found any data to support my opinions or
anyone elses.


Matt