Dark Side of the Hybrids
07-31-2005 | 03:50 PM
#46
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com>,
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine, Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff.
> By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without
> investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the point.
> They have data. You don't.
They have an agenda--sell more cars.
I don't. I simply don't like being spoon-fed by people who have an
agenda.
If you enjoy being spoon-fed by people who have an agenda--and
everything you say points that direction--that's your problem.
> You just assume that they're "spinning" because
> they're a big, bad company with an axe to grind.
Is it, then, your assertion that they are NOT spinning?
> YOU made the allegation
> that they're "spinning." Where's your proof? Show us your data to prove
> their data wrong. We're waiting.
Hmmmmmm.....I don't think I ever said that one way or another.
I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
One wonders why you would say that.
> I see, so far, no evidence to contradict
> the press release,
I see, so far, no evidence to support the press release. Toyota said
some things. I say, that's nice--but investigate further. You say, "if
they said it, I assume that it's 100% true and you have to prove
otherwise." That's your problem.
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine, Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff.
> By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without
> investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the point.
> They have data. You don't.
They have an agenda--sell more cars.
I don't. I simply don't like being spoon-fed by people who have an
agenda.
If you enjoy being spoon-fed by people who have an agenda--and
everything you say points that direction--that's your problem.
> You just assume that they're "spinning" because
> they're a big, bad company with an axe to grind.
Is it, then, your assertion that they are NOT spinning?
> YOU made the allegation
> that they're "spinning." Where's your proof? Show us your data to prove
> their data wrong. We're waiting.
Hmmmmmm.....I don't think I ever said that one way or another.
I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
One wonders why you would say that.
> I see, so far, no evidence to contradict
> the press release,
I see, so far, no evidence to support the press release. Toyota said
some things. I say, that's nice--but investigate further. You say, "if
they said it, I assume that it's 100% true and you have to prove
otherwise." That's your problem.
07-31-2005 | 03:50 PM
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com>,
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine, Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff.
> By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without
> investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the point.
> They have data. You don't.
They have an agenda--sell more cars.
I don't. I simply don't like being spoon-fed by people who have an
agenda.
If you enjoy being spoon-fed by people who have an agenda--and
everything you say points that direction--that's your problem.
> You just assume that they're "spinning" because
> they're a big, bad company with an axe to grind.
Is it, then, your assertion that they are NOT spinning?
> YOU made the allegation
> that they're "spinning." Where's your proof? Show us your data to prove
> their data wrong. We're waiting.
Hmmmmmm.....I don't think I ever said that one way or another.
I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
One wonders why you would say that.
> I see, so far, no evidence to contradict
> the press release,
I see, so far, no evidence to support the press release. Toyota said
some things. I say, that's nice--but investigate further. You say, "if
they said it, I assume that it's 100% true and you have to prove
otherwise." That's your problem.
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine, Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more stuff.
> By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale without
> investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the point.
> They have data. You don't.
They have an agenda--sell more cars.
I don't. I simply don't like being spoon-fed by people who have an
agenda.
If you enjoy being spoon-fed by people who have an agenda--and
everything you say points that direction--that's your problem.
> You just assume that they're "spinning" because
> they're a big, bad company with an axe to grind.
Is it, then, your assertion that they are NOT spinning?
> YOU made the allegation
> that they're "spinning." Where's your proof? Show us your data to prove
> their data wrong. We're waiting.
Hmmmmmm.....I don't think I ever said that one way or another.
I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
One wonders why you would say that.
> I see, so far, no evidence to contradict
> the press release,
I see, so far, no evidence to support the press release. Toyota said
some things. I say, that's nice--but investigate further. You say, "if
they said it, I assume that it's 100% true and you have to prove
otherwise." That's your problem.
07-31-2005 | 06:54 PM
#48
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote in
news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
>>>Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> without investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> point. They have data. You don't.
Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
"saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
>>>Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> without investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> point. They have data. You don't.
Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
"saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
07-31-2005 | 06:54 PM
#49
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote in
news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
>>>Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> without investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> point. They have data. You don't.
Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
"saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
>>>Toyota
> is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> without investigating it more.<<
>
> Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> point. They have data. You don't.
Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
"saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
07-31-2005 | 07:41 PM
#50
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <Xns96A4C0182982Fjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:
> "Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote in
> news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>
> >>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
> >>>Toyota
> > is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> > stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> > without investigating it more.<<
> >
> > Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> > point. They have data. You don't.
>
> Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
>
> And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
> people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
> "saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
> in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
(just waiting here for Sid to respond. Not holding my breath, but
still...)
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:
> "Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote in
> news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>
> >>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
> >>>Toyota
> > is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> > stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> > without investigating it more.<<
> >
> > Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> > point. They have data. You don't.
>
> Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
>
> And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
> people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
> "saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
> in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
(just waiting here for Sid to respond. Not holding my breath, but
still...)
07-31-2005 | 07:41 PM
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <Xns96A4C0182982Fjyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:
> "Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote in
> news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>
> >>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
> >>>Toyota
> > is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> > stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> > without investigating it more.<<
> >
> > Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> > point. They have data. You don't.
>
> Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
>
> And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
> people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
> "saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
> in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
(just waiting here for Sid to respond. Not holding my breath, but
still...)
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:
> "Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote in
> news:KpWdnZcOoc14lHDfRVn-1w@comcast.com:
>
> >>>I'm simply pointing out that, like any good corporate PR machine,
> >>>Toyota
> > is spinning their side of the story very hard in order to sell more
> > stuff. By that token, you shouldn't simply believe it wholesale
> > without investigating it more.<<
> >
> > Congratulations. You've just won the grand prize for missing the
> > point. They have data. You don't.
>
> Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.
>
> And auto companies often have "hidden" warranties or don't bother telling
> people about free repairs to correct deficiencies.Toyota is not any
> "saint".They,like any other product seller,are going to paint their product
> in the best possible light,and not disclose and downsides.
(just waiting here for Sid to respond. Not holding my breath, but
still...)
07-31-2005 | 08:06 PM
#52
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
>>Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.<<
I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
Toyota.
I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
Toyota.
07-31-2005 | 08:06 PM
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
>>Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.<<
I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
Toyota.
I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
Toyota.
07-31-2005 | 10:33 PM
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <SL6dnW0aLqcf-nDfRVn-3w@comcast.com>,
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.<<
>
> I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
> disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
> companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
> still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
> Toyota.
Um, I don't believe it's up to me to come up with anything. I simply
warned you that Toyota in this case is in the same role as the tobacco
companies, and that you'd be best to be wary.
What part of that didn't you understand, Sid?
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.<<
>
> I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
> disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
> companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
> still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
> Toyota.
Um, I don't believe it's up to me to come up with anything. I simply
warned you that Toyota in this case is in the same role as the tobacco
companies, and that you'd be best to be wary.
What part of that didn't you understand, Sid?
07-31-2005 | 10:33 PM
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <SL6dnW0aLqcf-nDfRVn-3w@comcast.com>,
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.<<
>
> I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
> disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
> companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
> still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
> Toyota.
Um, I don't believe it's up to me to come up with anything. I simply
warned you that Toyota in this case is in the same role as the tobacco
companies, and that you'd be best to be wary.
What part of that didn't you understand, Sid?
"Sid Schweiger" <spam@this.cretin> wrote:
> >>Tobacco companies had data,too,yet still told people smoking was safe.<<
>
> I deeply appreciate you making my point for me. Just as multiple
> disinterested parties came up with the data to contradict the tobacco
> companies (which is what got them to admit that they had the same data), I'm
> still waiting for Elmo P. Anonymous to come up with the data to contradict
> Toyota.
Um, I don't believe it's up to me to come up with anything. I simply
warned you that Toyota in this case is in the same role as the tobacco
companies, and that you'd be best to be wary.
What part of that didn't you understand, Sid?
08-01-2005 | 08:17 AM
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
to do the investigating and come up with something concrete. So far the
assertion that they are lying through their teeth (as they must if the claim
they are recycling the batteries is false) is weaker than the "who shot
Kennedy" conspiracy theories. Give us something we can use. Either you can
catch them in a huge lie or you are blowing smoke.
Mike
news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
to do the investigating and come up with something concrete. So far the
assertion that they are lying through their teeth (as they must if the claim
they are recycling the batteries is false) is weaker than the "who shot
Kennedy" conspiracy theories. Give us something we can use. Either you can
catch them in a huge lie or you are blowing smoke.
Mike
08-01-2005 | 08:17 AM
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
to do the investigating and come up with something concrete. So far the
assertion that they are lying through their teeth (as they must if the claim
they are recycling the batteries is false) is weaker than the "who shot
Kennedy" conspiracy theories. Give us something we can use. Either you can
catch them in a huge lie or you are blowing smoke.
Mike
news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
to do the investigating and come up with something concrete. So far the
assertion that they are lying through their teeth (as they must if the claim
they are recycling the batteries is false) is weaker than the "who shot
Kennedy" conspiracy theories. Give us something we can use. Either you can
catch them in a huge lie or you are blowing smoke.
Mike
08-01-2005 | 08:23 AM
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> > hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> > more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> > whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>
> Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
> to do the investigating and come up with something concrete.
Is it your position that Toyota's press releases are 100% truthful and
without omissions?
You miss my whole point.
Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something in black and
white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and not
necessarily accept what he says at face value?
That's all I said. Nothing more. I never said they were wrong; I said
they were spinning things, exactly like any politician or corporate
flack spins things.
Whenever a company puts out a press release, they're spinning things.
That's why corporations like that have big PR departments, and that's
why they have corporate policies that any contact with the press be done
only by or in conjunction with someone from their corporate PR
department.
All I said was, it looks good--but remember, they have an axe to grind,
and they spin things just like any other corporate or political entity.
Would it surprise any of us if we found out that they weren't being 100%
truthful? Not at all--because it's their job to obfuscate anything that
would be detrimental to their sole job of making money for their
shareholders.
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> > hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> > more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> > whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>
> Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
> to do the investigating and come up with something concrete.
Is it your position that Toyota's press releases are 100% truthful and
without omissions?
You miss my whole point.
Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something in black and
white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and not
necessarily accept what he says at face value?
That's all I said. Nothing more. I never said they were wrong; I said
they were spinning things, exactly like any politician or corporate
flack spins things.
Whenever a company puts out a press release, they're spinning things.
That's why corporations like that have big PR departments, and that's
why they have corporate policies that any contact with the press be done
only by or in conjunction with someone from their corporate PR
department.
All I said was, it looks good--but remember, they have an axe to grind,
and they spin things just like any other corporate or political entity.
Would it surprise any of us if we found out that they weren't being 100%
truthful? Not at all--because it's their job to obfuscate anything that
would be detrimental to their sole job of making money for their
shareholders.
08-01-2005 | 08:23 AM
#59
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
In article <-KGdnU0oo_hCj3PfRVn-pg@sedona.net>,
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> > hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> > more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> > whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>
> Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
> to do the investigating and come up with something concrete.
Is it your position that Toyota's press releases are 100% truthful and
without omissions?
You miss my whole point.
Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something in black and
white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and not
necessarily accept what he says at face value?
That's all I said. Nothing more. I never said they were wrong; I said
they were spinning things, exactly like any politician or corporate
flack spins things.
Whenever a company puts out a press release, they're spinning things.
That's why corporations like that have big PR departments, and that's
why they have corporate policies that any contact with the press be done
only by or in conjunction with someone from their corporate PR
department.
All I said was, it looks good--but remember, they have an axe to grind,
and they spin things just like any other corporate or political entity.
Would it surprise any of us if we found out that they weren't being 100%
truthful? Not at all--because it's their job to obfuscate anything that
would be detrimental to their sole job of making money for their
shareholders.
"Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote:
> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
> news:elmop-B9841B.15504631072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
> > I simply said "beware, and investigate it more". You, on the other
> > hand, appear to be saying that there's no need to investigate it
> > more--that everything they say in that PR piece is 100% the truth, the
> > whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
>
> Well, since Toyota has put their side in black and white, it's up to you to
> to do the investigating and come up with something concrete.
Is it your position that Toyota's press releases are 100% truthful and
without omissions?
You miss my whole point.
Let me put it this way: when President Bush puts something in black and
white like that, do you agree that one should be careful and not
necessarily accept what he says at face value?
That's all I said. Nothing more. I never said they were wrong; I said
they were spinning things, exactly like any politician or corporate
flack spins things.
Whenever a company puts out a press release, they're spinning things.
That's why corporations like that have big PR departments, and that's
why they have corporate policies that any contact with the press be done
only by or in conjunction with someone from their corporate PR
department.
All I said was, it looks good--but remember, they have an axe to grind,
and they spin things just like any other corporate or political entity.
Would it surprise any of us if we found out that they weren't being 100%
truthful? Not at all--because it's their job to obfuscate anything that
would be detrimental to their sole job of making money for their
shareholders.
08-01-2005 | 08:45 AM
#60
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dark Side of the Hybrids
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns96A47F50FF19jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84...
> "Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
> news
dadnVehus3aRHHfRVn-gQ@rogers.com:
>
>>
>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
>> news:Xns96A3D50822383jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>> "Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
>>> news:gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
>>>>> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>>>>>> and recycling:
>>>>>
>>>>> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>>>>
>>>> ....and?
>>>> That's it?
>>>>
>>>> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> NiMH and NiCd can only be recharged a number of times before their
>>> capacity
>>> drops off,and L-A batteries suffer from sulfation,electrolyte
>>> loss,and vibration/shock damage(material falls out of the lead
>>> grids,shorts the cell). Hot environments like the Southwest and
>>> Florida will shorten battery
>>> life further.
>>> I don't know of any rechargeable battery chemistry that can be
>>> recharged 100,000 times.
>>
>> Well, a hybrids' certainly wouldn't need to unless it only got 3 miles
>> per charge.
>
> They get charged before they run completely down;partial charges,"topping
> off".They still are charge cycles.
>
However, they are not failing. Try googling "prius battery fail" and you
will see about 10K hits with a ton of speculation about when the battery
will fail and about failures of the 12 volt aux battery (which is as
vulnerable as the 12 volt battery in conventional cars)... but good luck
finding a report of one that has actually died a natural death. Then google
"acura transmission fail" and you will get about 22K hits; why the
transmissions are failing, what to do about the transmissions failing. One
member of the Yahoo Prius group just had his150K mile service done on his
2001 and has done nothing but scheduled maintenance and tire replacement -
no battery failure yet. That figures since Toyota warranties the hybrid
system, including battery, for 8 years/100K miles (150K miles in CA).
Even the original Prius, sold since 1998 in Japan, has no battery failure
issues.
There is nothing in chemistry that limits the number of charge cycles for a
primary cell. Edison cells, for example, have no natural limitations on
charge/discharge cycles and usually last for decades but have poor energy
density. We are familiar with lead acid and NiCads which have serious life
limitations because of their particular chemistry so we assume all
rechargables do. Then we look at the batteries in portable electronics -
they are designed to charge as quickly as possible, have the highest
possible energy density and be profitable to replace - and we decide no
rechargable battery could last longer than a couple years... just as we
might watch sprinters and conclude no human can run more than a mile.
When it comes down to it, the experiment is on the roads and has been
successful for 7 years. At least one Prius has exceeded 200K miles
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Reliability.htm
Mike
news:Xns96A47F50FF19jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84...
> "Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
> news
dadnVehus3aRHHfRVn-gQ@rogers.com:>
>>
>> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
>> news:Xns96A3D50822383jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.83.. .
>>> "Steve Bigelow" <stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote in
>>> news:gvqdnUTaMpe6nHHfRVn-hQ@rogers.com:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:elmop-E6BE88.18342330072005@nntp1.usenetserver.com...
>>>>> In article <kknne1t1eropvvu7f34ufmjs6lgtq80uct@4ax.com>,
>>>>> Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is what Toyota has to say about battery replacement
>>>>>> and recycling:
>>>>>
>>>>> Spun like a member of the Clinton family.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you believe Toyota's PR spin 100%, you're in for a big surprise.
>>>>
>>>> ....and?
>>>> That's it?
>>>>
>>>> Please enlighten us with your wisdom on the subject.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> NiMH and NiCd can only be recharged a number of times before their
>>> capacity
>>> drops off,and L-A batteries suffer from sulfation,electrolyte
>>> loss,and vibration/shock damage(material falls out of the lead
>>> grids,shorts the cell). Hot environments like the Southwest and
>>> Florida will shorten battery
>>> life further.
>>> I don't know of any rechargeable battery chemistry that can be
>>> recharged 100,000 times.
>>
>> Well, a hybrids' certainly wouldn't need to unless it only got 3 miles
>> per charge.
>
> They get charged before they run completely down;partial charges,"topping
> off".They still are charge cycles.
>
However, they are not failing. Try googling "prius battery fail" and you
will see about 10K hits with a ton of speculation about when the battery
will fail and about failures of the 12 volt aux battery (which is as
vulnerable as the 12 volt battery in conventional cars)... but good luck
finding a report of one that has actually died a natural death. Then google
"acura transmission fail" and you will get about 22K hits; why the
transmissions are failing, what to do about the transmissions failing. One
member of the Yahoo Prius group just had his150K mile service done on his
2001 and has done nothing but scheduled maintenance and tire replacement -
no battery failure yet. That figures since Toyota warranties the hybrid
system, including battery, for 8 years/100K miles (150K miles in CA).
Even the original Prius, sold since 1998 in Japan, has no battery failure
issues.
There is nothing in chemistry that limits the number of charge cycles for a
primary cell. Edison cells, for example, have no natural limitations on
charge/discharge cycles and usually last for decades but have poor energy
density. We are familiar with lead acid and NiCads which have serious life
limitations because of their particular chemistry so we assume all
rechargables do. Then we look at the batteries in portable electronics -
they are designed to charge as quickly as possible, have the highest
possible energy density and be profitable to replace - and we decide no
rechargable battery could last longer than a couple years... just as we
might watch sprinters and conclude no human can run more than a mile.
When it comes down to it, the experiment is on the roads and has been
successful for 7 years. At least one Prius has exceeded 200K miles
http://www.hybridexperience.ca/Reliability.htm
Mike