> > > The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.
> > >
> > > I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that
are
> > 50 mm
> > > and 55 mm.
> > >
> >
> > 55 mm is definetely the right tool. I have the shop manual for my car.
> >

Oops! I just looked at my manual again and realized that it is 50 mm.


> > > The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html seems a
little
> > > misleading, as it doesn't show the extensions on the pulley bolt. I
can't
> > > believe any person could easily break the bolt free without a huge
> > extension on
> > > the breaker bar.

That link above seems to be the best price, all the googling in the world
turns up the same tool from the same folks. Must be the way to go.


>
> For one, I'd email the Ebay seller and ask if he made this tool himself or
what,
> because you don't see anything like it available commercially. (At least,
I
> didn't see any wrench like this available commercially.)
>

I have emailed him to see if he has a 50 mm version.


>
>
> I see the 95 Accords have at least two different pulley sizes (one for the
four
> cylinder and another for the V-6). I thought maybe the V-6 pulley got the
larger
> hex size. But yours is the smaller engine, and you say your manual lists
the 55
> mm hex size. George M. said he's only seen the 50 mm hex size in the
service
> manual.

George is right, I was wrong


>
> Maybe they're one in the same, with the 55 mm hex size being an outside
hex
> measurement.
>

Doubt it.

> I'm baffled on this point.
>


Sorry I mis lead you!

 

Caroline wrote:
>
> Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
> inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
> itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
> extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
> frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
> apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.

The use of twenty inches of extension isn't a real great idea in my mind.
You're actually going to lose a lot of torque that could be applied to the
bolt. Instead, a considerable (and unquantified) amount of your effort will
go into simply twisting the extensions much like a torsion spring.

Eric

 

"Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
> >
> > Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
> > inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
> > itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
> > extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
> > frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
> > apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
>
> The use of twenty inches of extension isn't a real great idea in my mind.
> You're actually going to lose a lot of torque that could be applied to the
> bolt. Instead, a considerable (and unquantified) amount of your effort will
> go into simply twisting the extensions much like a torsion spring.

The torque applied at one end must equal that applied at the other. No torque is
"lost." Same idea as pushing/pulling on an ordinary spring at one end. For
static equilibrium, the other end experiences the exact same magnitude of force,
regardless of the compression/extension of the spring. Physics/Statics/Newton's
Third Law.

The only possible concern is exceeding the elastic strength of the drive
extension material. As long as one is using 1/2-inch extension drives, the
torque applied in this instance is insufficient to do so.

As I wrote, a jack should be used to support the extensions at their end outside
the car. The jack acts as a fulcrum point. This further minimizes stress in the
extension drives.

 

"pjohnson" <news@thejohnsonabode.com> wrote
C wrote
> > > > The above Ebay link says the tool is a 55 mm hex.
> > > >
> > > > I am seeing commercially-available tools for 1990s Honda Accords that
> > > > are 50 mm and 55 mm.
snip
> Oops! I just looked at my manual again and realized that it is 50 mm.
>
>
> > > > The photo at http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/sp60100.html
snip
> That link above seems to be the best price, all the googling in the world
> turns up the same tool from the same folks. Must be the way to go.

Right around $40 (not including shipping) is the best price I saw commercially,
so yes, I suppose the above link is probably about as good as any right now.

Non-commercially, I thought I saw one just like the one at the link above for
around $33 at Ebay yesterday, but it seems to have been sold. The 50 mm tool
does come up a lot on Ebay. It might be worth checking Ebay regularly for a week
or so.

Still a bit of a mystery why the Ebay tool you found and the other site ($24.99
tool) I posted say 55 mm. For a savings of maybe $15, I'd be tempted to try to
contact the seller and ask them to measure the inside hex span of Alltrade tool
#648796,

http://www.tools-r-us.biz/h/Honda/Al...Pul_B0000TMLWQ
..htm (among other sites) and see what gives.

 

Caroline wrote:
> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
>
>>Caroline wrote:
>>
>>>Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
>>>inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
>>>itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
>>>extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
>>>frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
>>>apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
>>
>>The use of twenty inches of extension isn't a real great idea in my mind.
>>You're actually going to lose a lot of torque that could be applied to the
>>bolt. Instead, a considerable (and unquantified) amount of your effort will
>>go into simply twisting the extensions much like a torsion spring.
>
>
> The torque applied at one end must equal that applied at the other. No torque is
> "lost." Same idea as pushing/pulling on an ordinary spring at one end. For
> static equilibrium, the other end experiences the exact same magnitude of force,
> regardless of the compression/extension of the spring. Physics/Statics/Newton's
> Third Law.
>
> The only possible concern is exceeding the elastic strength of the drive
> extension material. As long as one is using 1/2-inch extension drives, the
> torque applied in this instance is insufficient to do so.
>
> As I wrote, a jack should be used to support the extensions at their end outside
> the car. The jack acts as a fulcrum point. This further minimizes stress in the
> extension drives.

eric may not be putting it in the terms you want, but long extensions
/are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
to jump. this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
damage, or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves. same with
retorquing. bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.
hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
"loss" of torque.

clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
better. or use 3/4".

 

"jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
> >>Caroline wrote:
> >>
> >>>Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
> >>>inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
> >>>itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
> >>>extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
> >>>frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
> >>>apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
snip

> long extensions
> /are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
> stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
> to jump.

I agree people should be alert to some kind of a jump, but I suspect chances are
they won't even notice it.

I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers on
the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
readers (all two of us?). ;-)

> this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
> damage,

Possibly, but more likely IMO is that, while unbolting, the bolt simply unscrews
a bit further.

> or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves.

I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so that
the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque required
closer to the body of the car.

For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to apply
more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.

Of course there's always the impact wrench, whose pros and cons have already
been discussed. Here you're chalking up another pro on the impact wrench side.
Noted. :-)

> same with
> retorquing.

> bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
> extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
> tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.

If you mean the threads of a bolt may hang up somewhat while installing, because
of rough spots on the threads, yes, this might occur, but I disagree that the
extension fools a person into thinking the torque is correct. What's applied at
one end of the extension will equal what's applied at the other, as long as the
elastic strength of the material is not exceeded.

They'd be fooled with or without the extension.

> hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
> "loss" of torque.
>
> clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
> better.

Quite debatable, IMO.

> or use 3/4".

This would certainly help. I presume one would use an adaptor at the 17 mm (for
my car) long 1/2-inch drive socket and everything else would be 3/4-inch drive.

 

pjohnson wrote:

> This has been a great thread to follow because I'm struggling with the
> pulley bolt on my 95 accord right now.
>
> I don't have the option to rig up a holding mechanism as previously
> described, there are no holes in the crank pulley. I've tried liquid wrench
> and banging away with an impact wrench (rated to 400 ft-lbs, man what are
> they feeding those robots in japan!). No good.
>
> BTW, I talked with a service technician at the dealer and they use the
> impact wrench for removal all of the time. The holding tool is a last
> resort.
>
> I may just try to locate a bigger impact wrench, but it might come down to
> getting the holding tool.
>
> So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
> (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&item=24819429
> 97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?
>
> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:2J_xc.393$Wr.361@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net...
> > "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
> > > Every other time for a [timing belt] tensioner bearing might be ok.
> Some
> > shops do them
> > > every time erring on the conservative side. Consider that a comeback
> after
> > > a timing belt job for a noisy tensioner bearing is quite bad for the
> shop.
> > > The cost of the bearing is small compared to the lost time and unhappy
> > > customer from having to go back in to replace it later. Often times, a
> > > tensioner bearing will not make noise with an old belt but once a new,
> > > properly tensioned belt is installed it can began to sing. Evaluating
> > > tensioner bearings can be tricky. My rules are as follows, if it spins
> > > freely like an old skateboard wheel, i.e., keeps on spinning, or makes
> the
> > > slightest bit of noise when rocked back and forth while spinning, then
> it's
> > > time for a new one.
> >
> > This is in my notes. Thanks much. :-)
> >
> >

alternative holding tool. Now mind you I did this on a 97 accord v6 but the
process should be similar

I removed the inspection shield for the transmission. (I have an automatic but
the manual trans would be similar)

I found a piece of plumbers strapping material
I removed 1 bolt from the torque converter and affixed the plumbers strapping
to the flywheel/torque converter
I ran the other end of the strapping material tightly and very straight over to
a bolt on the transmission. this could be any other substantial fastener on
the engine as well. this prevented the crankshaft from rotating.
Using an impact wrench, a very short lenght of air hose (to maximize pressure)
an impact extension and an impact wrench socket I was able to finally remove
the crankshaft bolt.
If you try to get by with regular sockets, extensions, and a lenghty air hose
you will only succeed to heat the socket fire cracker hot.

Hope that gives some new ideas.

 

Caroline wrote:

> "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
> > >>Caroline wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
> > >>>inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
> > >>>itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
> > >>>extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
> > >>>frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
> > >>>apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
> snip
>
> > long extensions
> > /are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
> > stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
> > to jump.
>
> I agree people should be alert to some kind of a jump, but I suspect chances are
> they won't even notice it.
>
> I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
> Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers on
> the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
> readers (all two of us?). ;-)
>
> > this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
> > damage,
>
> Possibly, but more likely IMO is that, while unbolting, the bolt simply unscrews
> a bit further.
>
> > or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves.
>
> I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so that
> the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque required
> closer to the body of the car.
>
> For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to apply
> more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.
>
> Of course there's always the impact wrench, whose pros and cons have already
> been discussed. Here you're chalking up another pro on the impact wrench side.
> Noted. :-)
>
> > same with
> > retorquing.
>
> > bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
> > extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
> > tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.
>
> If you mean the threads of a bolt may hang up somewhat while installing, because
> of rough spots on the threads, yes, this might occur, but I disagree that the
> extension fools a person into thinking the torque is correct. What's applied at
> one end of the extension will equal what's applied at the other, as long as the
> elastic strength of the material is not exceeded.
>
> They'd be fooled with or without the extension.
>
> > hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
> > "loss" of torque.
> >
> > clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
> > better.
>
> Quite debatable, IMO.
>
> > or use 3/4".
>
> This would certainly help. I presume one would use an adaptor at the 17 mm (for
> my car) long 1/2-inch drive socket and everything else would be 3/4-inch drive.

97 accord v6 I snapped 5-6 craftsman 1/2 drive extensions and several sockets
trying to remove my cranshaft pulley bolt. I nearly killed myself ;-) when the
extensions twisted, loaded up like a tortion bar, and shattered into several
pieces, or the socket cracked.
I didnt have any luck removing the bolt untill I used an impact wrench, impact
extension, and impact socket, and a very short lenght of 3/8" air hose (130psi at
the compressor).

what didnt work was when I had 50' of 3/8 air hose, I think I was only getting
60-80 psi at the gun. the shorter the hose the more pressure at the gun.

 

Caroline wrote:

> "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
>
>>>>Caroline wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Then you'd use a couple of ten-inch high quality, 1/2
>>>>>inch extensions and a 1/2 inch deep socket on the 19(?) mm pulley bolt
>>>>>itself, with a second, long breaker bar (1.5 to 2 feet). You want the
>>>>>extensions so you have space to do the torquing, well away from the car
>>>>>frame. An ordinary car jack supports the extensions so the torque you
>>>>>apply is applied as fully as possible to the pulley bolt.
>
> snip
>
>
>>long extensions
>>/are/ problematic because of wind-up. if you are undoing the bolt, the
>>stored energy of the twisted extension suddenly releasing can cause it
>>to jump.
>
>
> I agree people should be alert to some kind of a jump, but I suspect chances are
> they won't even notice it.
>
> I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
> Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers on
> the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
> readers (all two of us?). ;-)

i saw that. all that really matters is shear modulus [not to be
confused with shear strength], and most steels are very similar.
matweb.com [iirc] has a good searchable properties section.

>
>
>>this can cause the socket to disengage the bolt head with
>>damage,
>
>
> Possibly, but more likely IMO is that, while unbolting, the bolt simply unscrews
> a bit further.
>
>
>>or cause the operator to slip & injure themselves.
>
>
> I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so that
> the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque required
> closer to the body of the car.
>
> For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to apply
> more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.

hmm. if you're using a jack as a pivot, you're already into "unsafe
workshop practice" territory. and a 5' pipe extension requires only
~24lbs of you to reach manufacturer spec of 120ft.lbs so it's massive
overkill. with you being behind an unspecified number of extension
inches, /&/ 5' off axis, you have no control over the business end of
this tool. remember, it needs to remain snug on the nut throughout this
operation so there really should be a component of axial pressure to
keep the tool in place as well as the unscrewing torque. if you don't
feel big or strong enough to handle this without abnormal tools, then
find an appropriately sized assistant or get an impact wrench. i know
that "i can do this on my own thanks" seems to be an issue for some of
you mechanic chicks. get over it. size matters. and size /= gender.

>
> Of course there's always the impact wrench, whose pros and cons have already
> been discussed. Here you're chalking up another pro on the impact wrench side.
> Noted. :-)
>
>
>>same with
>>retorquing.
>
>
>>bolts often have a "notchy" tightening pattern, and a long
>>extension makes it much more difficult to measure whether you're
>>tightening against a notch or whether you really have correct torque.
>
>
> If you mean the threads of a bolt may hang up somewhat while installing, because
> of rough spots on the threads, yes, this might occur, but I disagree that the
> extension fools a person into thinking the torque is correct. What's applied at
> one end of the extension will equal what's applied at the other, as long as the
> elastic strength of the material is not exceeded.
>
> They'd be fooled with or without the extension.

well, think of it like this. if you're trying to apply 1lb of force
with a 1lb spring and 1lb of force with a 100lb spring, the 100lb spring
is going to have less bounce and make uneven movement much less of an
issue than the 1lb spring. just like if you've ever noticed how hard it
is to weigh stuff on grandma's old kitchen scales when it's getting to
the end of the gauge - the needle wobbles about all over the place.
same with long extensions. you have a much weaker "spring" than short
ones because, for the same material & diameter, the springiness is a
function of length. the math for this is on the web. you are correct
that the same torque is transmitted by both long & short extensions, but
accurate torque is about control, and that's not something you have a
lot of the way you have proposed.

>
>
>>hence the [not scientifically correct but "useful" description of]
>>"loss" of torque.
>>
>>clearly, if you have no choice, use the long extension, but shorter is
>>better.
>
>
> Quite debatable, IMO.
>
>
>>or use 3/4".
>
>
> This would certainly help. I presume one would use an adaptor at the 17 mm (for
> my car) long 1/2-inch drive socket and everything else would be 3/4-inch drive.

yes, adaptor at the business end.

 

The '95 uses the the immobilizing tool that looks like a big nut with a hole
in the middle and a flange on the side for a breaker bar. They cost about
$50 on the web. 1/2 inch sockets and extensions will work fine, as long as
you make sure they are all case hardened (impact sockets and hardened
extension & breaker bar.)

400 ft-lbs probably won't do it. We estimated the breaking torque on the
'95 Odyssey (same big four that the accord uses) was somewhere around 500+
ft-lbs. With the 4 foot gas pipe on the breaker bar it wasn't all that bad,
one man could easily generate enough force to pop it. You just need to be
careful and stick to a short extension or none at all to minimize the
twisting.

On 6/14/04 3:38 PM, in article 40CE0CCE.3E54C978@eeppf001.ca.boeing.com, "M"
<mab2728@eeppf001.ca.boeing.com> wrote:

> pjohnson wrote:
>
>> This has been a great thread to follow because I'm struggling with the
>> pulley bolt on my 95 accord right now.
>>
>> I don't have the option to rig up a holding mechanism as previously
>> described, there are no holes in the crank pulley. I've tried liquid wrench
>> and banging away with an impact wrench (rated to 400 ft-lbs, man what are
>> they feeding those robots in japan!). No good.
>>
>> BTW, I talked with a service technician at the dealer and they use the
>> impact wrench for removal all of the time. The holding tool is a last
>> resort.
>>
>> I may just try to locate a bigger impact wrench, but it might come down to
>> getting the holding tool.
>>
>> So, does anybody know if that tool that's always there on ebay
>> (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&item=24819429
>> 97&category=43994&sspagename=WDVW) is a piece of junk, or what?
>>
>> "Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:2J_xc.393$Wr.361@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink .net...
>>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote
>>>> Every other time for a [timing belt] tensioner bearing might be ok.
>> Some
>>> shops do them
>>>> every time erring on the conservative side. Consider that a comeback
>> after
>>>> a timing belt job for a noisy tensioner bearing is quite bad for the
>> shop.
>>>> The cost of the bearing is small compared to the lost time and unhappy
>>>> customer from having to go back in to replace it later. Often times, a
>>>> tensioner bearing will not make noise with an old belt but once a new,
>>>> properly tensioned belt is installed it can began to sing. Evaluating
>>>> tensioner bearings can be tricky. My rules are as follows, if it spins
>>>> freely like an old skateboard wheel, i.e., keeps on spinning, or makes
>> the
>>>> slightest bit of noise when rocked back and forth while spinning, then
>> it's
>>>> time for a new one.
>>>
>>> This is in my notes. Thanks much. :-)
>>>
>>>
>
> alternative holding tool. Now mind you I did this on a 97 accord v6 but the
> process should be similar
>
> I removed the inspection shield for the transmission. (I have an automatic
> but
> the manual trans would be similar)
>
> I found a piece of plumbers strapping material
> I removed 1 bolt from the torque converter and affixed the plumbers strapping
> to the flywheel/torque converter
> I ran the other end of the strapping material tightly and very straight over
> to
> a bolt on the transmission. this could be any other substantial fastener on
> the engine as well. this prevented the crankshaft from rotating.
> Using an impact wrench, a very short lenght of air hose (to maximize pressure)
> an impact extension and an impact wrench socket I was able to finally remove
> the crankshaft bolt.
> If you try to get by with regular sockets, extensions, and a lenghty air hose
> you will only succeed to heat the socket fire cracker hot.
>
> Hope that gives some new ideas.
>
>
>

 

"jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
> Caroline wrote:
re using extensions to free the crankshaft pulley bolt--
> > I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
> > Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers
on
> > the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
> > readers (all two of us?). ;-)
>
> i saw that. all that really matters is shear modulus [not to be
> confused with shear strength], and most steels are very similar.
> matweb.com [iirc] has a good searchable properties section.

www.matweb.com is great.

Today I realized I, among others here, have a pretty good "laboratory estimate"
already of the twist in the extensions. Last week when I broke my pulley bolt
free, I recall having to rotate the extension bar around 90 degrees (= 1/4
revolution) before the bolt broke loose. That's a very crude estimate done
before I did the calculation below. It wasn't 180 degrees. It wasn't 10 degrees.

The rotation of a bar under torsion is given by Theta, radians = TL/JG

With
T = 500 ft-lbs
L = 25 inches (two ten-inch extensions + long socket, etc.)
J = polar second moment of area of a 1/2-inch drive
G = 11,300 psi

This yields about 75 degrees of rotation.

The guy named "M" posted here today that he broke a number of Craftsman 1/2-inch
extensions and sockets when trying to remove the pulley bolt on his 97 Honda
V-6. This is instructive and helpful for people to know. But one of the sites
(http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html ) I routinely quote here
talks about breaking three cheap extensions while trying to free the pulley
bolt. So I for one knew what to look for. Also, to my "credit," over the years I
have sheared at least one socket and now two 3/8"-1/4" adapters. I do not go at
this lightly. No one should.

I do suspect the required torque for the V-6 engine's pulley bolt is higher than
my in-line 1.5L four cylinder engine. Still, M's post is important. The
inexperienced should take special note.

> > I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so
that
> > the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque
required
> > closer to the body of the car.
> >
> > For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to
apply
> > more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.
>
> hmm. if you're using a jack as a pivot, you're already into "unsafe
> workshop practice" territory.

The car's jack is way overkill for supporting the load here. It's more unsafe to
change one's tire with these jacks.

> and a 5' pipe extension requires only
> ~24lbs of you to reach manufacturer spec of 120ft.lbs so it's massive
> overkill.

With the 5' extension I was breaking the bolt free, not tightening it. As has
been reported here, some folks estimate around 500 ft-lbs. or torque are needed.

I estimate I needed over 300 ft-lbs. of torque to break mine free last week.

When installing the bolt, I used a 1-foot pipe extension and my weight for the
manual-required 119 ft-lbs of torque.

> with you being behind an unspecified number of extension
> inches, /&/ 5' off axis, you have no control over the business end of
> this tool.

I have as much control over it as someone pulling with both hands from above the
car or someone using a high-powered torque wrench.

> remember, it needs to remain snug on the nut throughout this
> operation so there really should be a component of axial pressure to
> keep the tool in place as well as the unscrewing torque.

You're forgetting that the final snugging involves rotation of maybe 1/4 turn.
The bolt advances at most 1/4 turn. If you do this in five steps, pushing on the
socket each time, I don't consider this anymore or less safe than any other
method.

> if you don't
> feel big or strong enough to handle this without abnormal tools,

My car's pulley bolt is already broken free, Jim. I described my technique. If
you want to upbraid my approach, I expect you to upbraid just about every person
here who posts their technique. None of them are particularly more or less safe
than what I did, from my reading.

I have serious experience with major machinery. I have been the lead mechanical
engineer for a Fortune 500 company on a mega-million bucks nuclear power plant
component replacement job. The most important bolts for this job had to be
torqued so highly that special heating elements were used to stretch them, so
they could easily be screwed in. Upon cooling, the torque built up. I have also
watched bolts being torqued using hydraulic pressure. I have significant other
experience (years) with major power plant components. I know what kind of forces
are involved here.

I also often run the stress and other, related numbers, as I alluded before, to
see that I have some safety margin. Most male mechanics I know wing it.

> then
> find an appropriately sized assistant or get an impact wrench. i know
> that "i can do this on my own thanks" seems to be an issue for some of
> you mechanic chicks. get over it. size matters. and size /= gender.

Men are far less safety conscious than women, on average, from my observations.
So, yes, Jim, get over it: Mere size is not enough to keep a person safe. A lot
of men delude themselves into thinking they can do anything.

Just consider the number of yahoos posting here about their pride in driving 90
mph in their ordinary Honda down the freeway.

snip
> you are correct
> that the same torque is transmitted by both long & short extensions, but
> accurate torque is about control, and that's not something you have a
> lot of the way you have proposed.

No, accurate torque is about using a calibrated torque wrench or a calibrated
weight at the end of a known torque arm distance.

The angular twist in the extensions while torquing down the pulley bolt is
completely irrelevant to what the torque wrench senses. One gets the 'click' (on
the usual torque wrench), or one does not. If one is very concerned, torque in
five or so steps.

 

dude, please don't think i'm knocking you - i'm not, so please be less
defensive. i don't doubt your experience, but, with respect, i've been
around the block a couple of times as well.

regarding supporting a wrench with a jack, of course the jack can take
the load - that's not the point. the point is, even with the best
intent, the wrench is not under full control in that situation so it's
potentially very dangerous in the event of slippage or breakage.
period. a large person with two hands on the tool [regardless of
gender] - one on the end of the lever and the other on the pivot /is/ a
properly controlled situation - as is a pneumatic impact drive.

regarding torque application, again, you are correct that torque at one
end = torque at the other, /but/ you're not allowing for the dynamic
affects of wind-up. you know how you can hold a pneumatic impact wrench
in one hand and have it hammer off 400ft.lbs? ever wondered why it
doesn't break your arm off? that's dynamic loading - it depends on the
very short duration impact momentum of the hammer striking its anvil to
do the work, not any force that can be applied by your arm. and to
limit the torque applied by impact wrenches, you can get extension bars
like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=42478

do the math for a reduced diameter extension bar like one of these, then
compare it to one with extended length. notice the correlation?

in a situation where you do not have a smooth bolt rotation, the
action/sprung reaction effect of a long extension /can/ affect accurate
torque application. it's not simply a "weight at the end of a beam" but
also the time over which that weight is applied - and time is affected
by the spring rate.

best

jb

Caroline wrote:
> "jim beam" <uce@ftc.gov> wrote
>
>>Caroline wrote:
>
> re using extensions to free the crankshaft pulley bolt--
>
>>>I'm trying to get the mechanical properties of the (Molybdenum?) steel that
>>>Craftsman, for one, uses with their extensions. Maybe I'll run some numbers
>
> on
>
>>>the amount of twist in the extensions, from end to end, for the interested
>>>readers (all two of us?). ;-)
>>
>>i saw that. all that really matters is shear modulus [not to be
>>confused with shear strength], and most steels are very similar.
>>matweb.com [iirc] has a good searchable properties section.
>
>
> www.matweb.com is great.
>
> Today I realized I, among others here, have a pretty good "laboratory estimate"
> already of the twist in the extensions. Last week when I broke my pulley bolt
> free, I recall having to rotate the extension bar around 90 degrees (= 1/4
> revolution) before the bolt broke loose. That's a very crude estimate done
> before I did the calculation below. It wasn't 180 degrees. It wasn't 10 degrees.
>
> The rotation of a bar under torsion is given by Theta, radians = TL/JG
>
> With
> T = 500 ft-lbs
> L = 25 inches (two ten-inch extensions + long socket, etc.)
> J = polar second moment of area of a 1/2-inch drive
> G = 11,300 psi
>
> This yields about 75 degrees of rotation.
>
> The guy named "M" posted here today that he broke a number of Craftsman 1/2-inch
> extensions and sockets when trying to remove the pulley bolt on his 97 Honda
> V-6. This is instructive and helpful for people to know. But one of the sites
> (http://www.cadvision.com/blanchas/54pontiac/honda.html ) I routinely quote here
> talks about breaking three cheap extensions while trying to free the pulley
> bolt. So I for one knew what to look for. Also, to my "credit," over the years I
> have sheared at least one socket and now two 3/8"-1/4" adapters. I do not go at
> this lightly. No one should.
>
> I do suspect the required torque for the V-6 engine's pulley bolt is higher than
> my in-line 1.5L four cylinder engine. Still, M's post is important. The
> inexperienced should take special note.
>
>
>>>I think the tradeoff is whether one wants to rig up something (somehow) so
>
> that
>
>>>the extensions are not needed, then struggle to get the enormous torque
>
> required
>
>>>closer to the body of the car.
>>>
>>>For me, this means I could not use my 5-foot pipe extension. I'd have to
>
> apply
>
>>>more of my body weight to a shorter torque arm at much much greater risk.
>>
>>hmm. if you're using a jack as a pivot, you're already into "unsafe
>>workshop practice" territory.
>
>
> The car's jack is way overkill for supporting the load here. It's more unsafe to
> change one's tire with these jacks.
>
>
>>and a 5' pipe extension requires only
>>~24lbs of you to reach manufacturer spec of 120ft.lbs so it's massive
>>overkill.
>
>
> With the 5' extension I was breaking the bolt free, not tightening it. As has
> been reported here, some folks estimate around 500 ft-lbs. or torque are needed.
>
> I estimate I needed over 300 ft-lbs. of torque to break mine free last week.
>
> When installing the bolt, I used a 1-foot pipe extension and my weight for the
> manual-required 119 ft-lbs of torque.
>
>
>>with you being behind an unspecified number of extension
>>inches, /&/ 5' off axis, you have no control over the business end of
>>this tool.
>
>
> I have as much control over it as someone pulling with both hands from above the
> car or someone using a high-powered torque wrench.
>
>
>>remember, it needs to remain snug on the nut throughout this
>>operation so there really should be a component of axial pressure to
>>keep the tool in place as well as the unscrewing torque.
>
>
> You're forgetting that the final snugging involves rotation of maybe 1/4 turn.
> The bolt advances at most 1/4 turn. If you do this in five steps, pushing on the
> socket each time, I don't consider this anymore or less safe than any other
> method.
>
>
>>if you don't
>>feel big or strong enough to handle this without abnormal tools,
>
>
> My car's pulley bolt is already broken free, Jim. I described my technique. If
> you want to upbraid my approach, I expect you to upbraid just about every person
> here who posts their technique. None of them are particularly more or less safe
> than what I did, from my reading.
>
> I have serious experience with major machinery. I have been the lead mechanical
> engineer for a Fortune 500 company on a mega-million bucks nuclear power plant
> component replacement job. The most important bolts for this job had to be
> torqued so highly that special heating elements were used to stretch them, so
> they could easily be screwed in. Upon cooling, the torque built up. I have also
> watched bolts being torqued using hydraulic pressure. I have significant other
> experience (years) with major power plant components. I know what kind of forces
> are involved here.
>
> I also often run the stress and other, related numbers, as I alluded before, to
> see that I have some safety margin. Most male mechanics I know wing it.
>
>
>>then
>>find an appropriately sized assistant or get an impact wrench. i know
>>that "i can do this on my own thanks" seems to be an issue for some of
>>you mechanic chicks. get over it. size matters. and size /= gender.
>
>
> Men are far less safety conscious than women, on average, from my observations.
> So, yes, Jim, get over it: Mere size is not enough to keep a person safe. A lot
> of men delude themselves into thinking they can do anything.
>
> Just consider the number of yahoos posting here about their pride in driving 90
> mph in their ordinary Honda down the freeway.
>
> snip
>
>> you are correct
>>that the same torque is transmitted by both long & short extensions, but
>>accurate torque is about control, and that's not something you have a
>>lot of the way you have proposed.
>
>
> No, accurate torque is about using a calibrated torque wrench or a calibrated
> weight at the end of a known torque arm distance.
>
> The angular twist in the extensions while torquing down the pulley bolt is
> completely irrelevant to what the torque wrench senses. One gets the 'click' (on
> the usual torque wrench), or one does not. If one is very concerned, torque in
> five or so steps.
>
>

 

"Caroline" <caroline10027remove@earthlink.net> wrote
> "tflfb" wrote:
> > Do you have the old piece, if so I would get some JB Weld, rotate the pulley
> > to a position where it could be refastened with JB Weld, and let it sit over
> > night.
> >
> > If a little of the cement squishes out to the belt side, it may be possible
> > to remove it with sandpaper after it drys.
>
> Yes, I do have the old piece. I'll read up on JB Weld's strength
characteristics
> and assess the risk if the "weld" does not hold and the little piece goes
flying
> off. (It's about 1.5" of pulley arc length" x 9/16" x 1/8".) Thanks.

The JB Weld held fine for I figure about two weeks. But yesterday I discovered
the chipped off piece had come free. It's now lost forever. Must have
miscalculated for "worst case" scenarios--hitting bumps, etc.

Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on the
edge closest to the chipped section.

My first local salvage yard didn't have the right pulley, after all. The second
local salvage yard wanted almost the same as Majestic online (about $100) for a
used pulley. This despite my "fierce negotiations." The guy at the yard kept
insisting he could get $100 for it from local shops. I told him I'd keep
thinking about it but walked out happily, feeling pretty confident I could do
better online, one way or another. Meanwhile I drive prepared to lose power
steering...

Ebay occasionally has non-performance (i.e. OEM non aluminum) pulleys for early
1990s Hondas but not right now. I researched on the net and discovered the
online salvage yard business. Pretty cool. Many (most?) have search engines
which all seem to use the same format. Dunno what's with this but the responses
I got varied enough for me to think I was pretty much searching one store's
inventory at a time.

I found one pulley (and I mean exactly one!) that should work on my car.
Interchangeability is very limited, with IIRC variation in pulley wheel
diameters for the alternator and PS belts (didn't check power steering). Plus,
not all of them had the correct circumferential holes for which my home-made
pulley holder tool is designed, so, you know... ;-)

By the looks of things at the Majestic site, only 1989-91 Civic LX (and only
LX!) pulleys are identical.

I'm paying $50 total (= part cost + shipping/handling) to Olstons.com for a 1990
LX pulley, with the clerk there double checking two diameters for me, shipped
UPS. Hopefully it's a fit.

Meanwhile I'm finding other uses for JB Weld around the house. :-)

 

> Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on the
> edge closest to the chipped section.

im wondering whether the sharp edge where the pulley broke can be filed
or ground down to make it "softer" as a stopgap measure.

 

"SoCalMike" <mikein562athotmail@hotmail.com> wrote
C wrote
> > Worse, as George supposed, the power steering belt does look a bit frayed on
the
> > edge closest to the chipped section.
>
> im wondering whether the sharp edge where the pulley broke can be filed
> or ground down to make it "softer" as a stopgap measure.

Yes, I am thinking about doing this, as I monitor the PS belt's fraying. ;-)
Only a few inches of one edge seem to be staying frayed, with no worsening.
Maybe the fraying occurred when the JB weld gave up and the chip flew off.

Maybe I'll lay a little JB weld on there to smooth out the rough edges, too.

Anyway, I'm not sweating it. My "new" pulley should be here within a week, and I
don't need the car for anything but recreation lately.