Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:lQygh.485570$5R2.202156@pd7urf3no:

> jrk wrote:
>> "Matt Ion" <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no...
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>
>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>checmical reaction.
>>
>>
>> Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>
> Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
> to consider them functional "capacitors" though.

I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
battery model definitely has capacitance.
Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
capacitor.
>
>> Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>> suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>> nothing?
>
> Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.

yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?


> That's generated
> out of a chemical reaction.
>

differing from electric charges generated by friction;static electricity.
They both are ELECTRIC charges,though.Both are electric current,too.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:lQygh.485570$5R2.202156@pd7urf3no:

> jrk wrote:
>> "Matt Ion" <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no...
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>
>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>checmical reaction.
>>
>>
>> Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>
> Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
> to consider them functional "capacitors" though.

I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
battery model definitely has capacitance.
Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
capacitor.
>
>> Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>> suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>> nothing?
>
> Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.

yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?


> That's generated
> out of a chemical reaction.
>

differing from electric charges generated by friction;static electricity.
They both are ELECTRIC charges,though.Both are electric current,too.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:lQygh.485570$5R2.202156@pd7urf3no:

> jrk wrote:
>> "Matt Ion" <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no...
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>
>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>checmical reaction.
>>
>>
>> Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>
> Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
> to consider them functional "capacitors" though.

I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
battery model definitely has capacitance.
Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
capacitor.
>
>> Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>> suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>> nothing?
>
> Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.

yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?


> That's generated
> out of a chemical reaction.
>

differing from electric charges generated by friction;static electricity.
They both are ELECTRIC charges,though.Both are electric current,too.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:lQygh.485570$5R2.202156@pd7urf3no:

> jrk wrote:
>> "Matt Ion" <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no...
>>
>>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>
>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>checmical reaction.
>>
>>
>> Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>
> Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
> to consider them functional "capacitors" though.

I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
battery model definitely has capacitance.
Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
capacitor.
>
>> Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>> suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>> nothing?
>
> Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.

yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?


> That's generated
> out of a chemical reaction.
>

differing from electric charges generated by friction;static electricity.
They both are ELECTRIC charges,though.Both are electric current,too.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Jim Yanik wrote:

>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>
>>>
>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>
>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
>>to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>
>
> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
> a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance are needed.
Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced traces on the
circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network cables, the
inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into account.

That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most cases the
inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than the capacitance in
a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real use.

> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
> battery model definitely has capacitance.
> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
> capacitor.

Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But that's
true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old carbon-based
flashlight batteries.

>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>nothing?
>>
>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>
>
> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?

They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the electrical
(kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical reaction; the electrical
energy is converted to chemical (potential) energy. When not charging, the
inverse chemical reaction converts chemical energy back to electrical energy.

In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity (as opposed
to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's merely converting one form
of energy to another.

 

Jim Yanik wrote:

>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>
>>>
>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>
>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
>>to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>
>
> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
> a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance are needed.
Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced traces on the
circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network cables, the
inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into account.

That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most cases the
inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than the capacitance in
a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real use.

> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
> battery model definitely has capacitance.
> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
> capacitor.

Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But that's
true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old carbon-based
flashlight batteries.

>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>nothing?
>>
>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>
>
> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?

They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the electrical
(kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical reaction; the electrical
energy is converted to chemical (potential) energy. When not charging, the
inverse chemical reaction converts chemical energy back to electrical energy.

In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity (as opposed
to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's merely converting one form
of energy to another.

 

Jim Yanik wrote:

>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>
>>>
>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>
>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
>>to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>
>
> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
> a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance are needed.
Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced traces on the
circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network cables, the
inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into account.

That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most cases the
inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than the capacitance in
a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real use.

> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
> battery model definitely has capacitance.
> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
> capacitor.

Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But that's
true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old carbon-based
flashlight batteries.

>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>nothing?
>>
>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>
>
> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?

They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the electrical
(kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical reaction; the electrical
energy is converted to chemical (potential) energy. When not charging, the
inverse chemical reaction converts chemical energy back to electrical energy.

In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity (as opposed
to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's merely converting one form
of energy to another.

 

Jim Yanik wrote:

>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>
>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
>>>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>
>>>
>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>
>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not enough
>>to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>
>
> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic circuit for
> a capacitor,by DESIGN.

Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance are needed.
Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced traces on the
circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network cables, the
inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into account.

That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most cases the
inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than the capacitance in
a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real use.

> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided design,the
> battery model definitely has capacitance.
> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
> capacitor.

Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But that's
true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old carbon-based
flashlight batteries.

>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>nothing?
>>
>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>
>
> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?

They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the electrical
(kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical reaction; the electrical
energy is converted to chemical (potential) energy. When not charging, the
inverse chemical reaction converts chemical energy back to electrical energy.

In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity (as opposed
to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's merely converting one form
of energy to another.

 

Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:AxBgh.485714$5R2.255447@pd7urf3no:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery
>>>>>is not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>>
>>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not
>>>enough to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>>
>>
>> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic
>> circuit for a capacitor,by DESIGN.
>
> Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance
> are needed.
> Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced
> traces on the
> circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network
> cables, the inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into
> account.
>
> That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most
> cases the inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than
> the capacitance in a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real
> use.
>
>> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided
>> design,the battery model definitely has capacitance.
>> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
>> capacitor.
>
> Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But
> that's true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old
> carbon-based flashlight batteries.
>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>>nothing?
>>>
>>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>>
>>
>> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?
>
> They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the
> electrical (kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical
> reaction; the electrical energy is converted to chemical (potential)
> energy. When not charging, the inverse chemical reaction converts
> chemical energy back to electrical energy.
>
> In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity
> (as opposed to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's
> merely converting one form of energy to another.
>

When you DRAW current from a battery,how does the chemistry knows to start
converting chemicals to electric current?
Where does that initial current come from?


Simple,the *charge on the plates* decreases and the chemical reaction adds
more electrons to fill the depletion of the plates charge.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:AxBgh.485714$5R2.255447@pd7urf3no:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery
>>>>>is not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>>
>>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not
>>>enough to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>>
>>
>> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic
>> circuit for a capacitor,by DESIGN.
>
> Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance
> are needed.
> Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced
> traces on the
> circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network
> cables, the inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into
> account.
>
> That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most
> cases the inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than
> the capacitance in a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real
> use.
>
>> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided
>> design,the battery model definitely has capacitance.
>> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
>> capacitor.
>
> Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But
> that's true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old
> carbon-based flashlight batteries.
>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>>nothing?
>>>
>>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>>
>>
>> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?
>
> They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the
> electrical (kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical
> reaction; the electrical energy is converted to chemical (potential)
> energy. When not charging, the inverse chemical reaction converts
> chemical energy back to electrical energy.
>
> In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity
> (as opposed to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's
> merely converting one form of energy to another.
>

When you DRAW current from a battery,how does the chemistry knows to start
converting chemicals to electric current?
Where does that initial current come from?


Simple,the *charge on the plates* decreases and the chemical reaction adds
more electrons to fill the depletion of the plates charge.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:AxBgh.485714$5R2.255447@pd7urf3no:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery
>>>>>is not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>>
>>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not
>>>enough to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>>
>>
>> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic
>> circuit for a capacitor,by DESIGN.
>
> Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance
> are needed.
> Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced
> traces on the
> circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network
> cables, the inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into
> account.
>
> That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most
> cases the inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than
> the capacitance in a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real
> use.
>
>> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided
>> design,the battery model definitely has capacitance.
>> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
>> capacitor.
>
> Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But
> that's true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old
> carbon-based flashlight batteries.
>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>>nothing?
>>>
>>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>>
>>
>> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?
>
> They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the
> electrical (kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical
> reaction; the electrical energy is converted to chemical (potential)
> energy. When not charging, the inverse chemical reaction converts
> chemical energy back to electrical energy.
>
> In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity
> (as opposed to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's
> merely converting one form of energy to another.
>

When you DRAW current from a battery,how does the chemistry knows to start
converting chemicals to electric current?
Where does that initial current come from?


Simple,the *charge on the plates* decreases and the chemical reaction adds
more electrons to fill the depletion of the plates charge.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
news:AxBgh.485714$5R2.255447@pd7urf3no:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>>>>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
>>>>>
>>>>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
>>>>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery
>>>>>is not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
>>>>>checmical reaction.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do have capacitance, do you have a meter?
>>>
>>>Sure they do. A pair of wires running side-by-side do too. Not
>>>enough to consider them functional "capacitors" though.
>>
>>
>> I've seen such a "pair of wires" literally used in a electronic
>> circuit for a capacitor,by DESIGN.
>
> Sure, usually in RF circuits where very tiny amounts of capacitance
> are needed.
> Sometimes a "capacitor" even exists as just a pair of interlaced
> traces on the
> circuit board. And in high-frequency designs, particularly network
> cables, the inherent capacitance of the wires must be taken into
> account.
>
> That doesn't mean a pair of wires *are* "a capacitor", or that in most
> cases the inherent capacitance is of any concern or use, any more than
> the capacitance in a lead-acid battery is of any concern or any real
> use.
>
>> Engineers modeling components like a battery for computer aided
>> design,the battery model definitely has capacitance.
>> Even the electronic symbol for a battery is two plates,just like a
>> capacitor.
>
> Well, usually a series of stacked plates of alternating lengths. But
> that's true of the the symbol for ANY battery, including your good old
> carbon-based flashlight batteries.
>
>>>>Batteries most definitely do store energy when charged. Or are you
>>>>suggesting that when it is used up that more is created out of
>>>>nothing?
>>>
>>>Yes, they store energy... but not ELECTRICAL energy.
>>
>>
>> yes,it is electrical energy. What other sort of energy would it be?
>
> They don't STORE electrical energy. When you charge a battery, the
> electrical (kinetic) energy you feed into it creates a chemical
> reaction; the electrical energy is converted to chemical (potential)
> energy. When not charging, the inverse chemical reaction converts
> chemical energy back to electrical energy.
>
> In a very simpistic sense, sure, a battery is "storing" electricity
> (as opposed to "electrical energy"). At the physics level, it's
> merely converting one form of energy to another.
>

When you DRAW current from a battery,how does the chemistry knows to start
converting chemicals to electric current?
Where does that initial current come from?


Simple,the *charge on the plates* decreases and the chemical reaction adds
more electrons to fill the depletion of the plates charge.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> nm5k@wt.net wrote:
> > Jim Yanik wrote:
> >
> >>Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
> >>>
> >>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
> >>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
> >>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
> >>>checmical reaction.
> >>>
> >>
> >>The plates of a battery have capacitance.
> >>They are charged by the chemical reaction.
> >
> >
> > A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words,
> > it's a very stout capacitor..
>
> Not even close. The smaller the plates of a capacitor, the less the
> capacitance. The further apart they are, the less the capacitance. Lead-acid
> battery plates are EXTREMELY small and EXTREMELY far apart compared to a true
> capacitor's.
>
> If you were to drain the water from a battery and measure the capacitance, I
> suspect you'd find it in the low microfarads, if not picofarads.

Sure. The capacitance I mention is more of an apparant capacitance.
It's not true capacitance per say, but the normal operating car battery
does provide a large apparant capacitance to the system. But this would

not be the case with a non functioning battery.
I use car and deep cycle marine batteries to run radios here in the
house.
My chargers are unfiltered, but yet I have little noise to my radios.
The use of my battery as a cap is a bit different in operation vs a
true
capacitor, but the final apparant filtering is still there. If the
battery were
not acting as a cap of sorts, I would have hash and trash out the
kazoo..
I don't know if this makes any sense, as it's hard for me to describe
stuff
like this off the top of my head..
As a quite dangerous test you could try running a car radio off the
running
alternator with no battery connected. I bet it will be quite noisy,
fairly
unregulated as far as volume, etc vs rpm. IE: if the rpm dropped too
low,
the radio might totally drop out due to the low voltage.
Hook the battery up, and all is smoothed out. Both as far as
regulation,
and also filtering. If thats not acting like a large "apparent"
capacitor,
I don't know what is. The operation is different, but the end results
are
about the same. This is not something I've really thought about too
much,
but I've always considered the usual operating car battery to have many
farads of capacitance, at least as far as overall function. Maybe not
true
in the strict sense, as far as true caps go, but as far as the end
results
of placing it in the system. I dunno if this makes any sense or not..
:/
MK

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> nm5k@wt.net wrote:
> > Jim Yanik wrote:
> >
> >>Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
> >>>
> >>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
> >>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
> >>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
> >>>checmical reaction.
> >>>
> >>
> >>The plates of a battery have capacitance.
> >>They are charged by the chemical reaction.
> >
> >
> > A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words,
> > it's a very stout capacitor..
>
> Not even close. The smaller the plates of a capacitor, the less the
> capacitance. The further apart they are, the less the capacitance. Lead-acid
> battery plates are EXTREMELY small and EXTREMELY far apart compared to a true
> capacitor's.
>
> If you were to drain the water from a battery and measure the capacitance, I
> suspect you'd find it in the low microfarads, if not picofarads.

Sure. The capacitance I mention is more of an apparant capacitance.
It's not true capacitance per say, but the normal operating car battery
does provide a large apparant capacitance to the system. But this would

not be the case with a non functioning battery.
I use car and deep cycle marine batteries to run radios here in the
house.
My chargers are unfiltered, but yet I have little noise to my radios.
The use of my battery as a cap is a bit different in operation vs a
true
capacitor, but the final apparant filtering is still there. If the
battery were
not acting as a cap of sorts, I would have hash and trash out the
kazoo..
I don't know if this makes any sense, as it's hard for me to describe
stuff
like this off the top of my head..
As a quite dangerous test you could try running a car radio off the
running
alternator with no battery connected. I bet it will be quite noisy,
fairly
unregulated as far as volume, etc vs rpm. IE: if the rpm dropped too
low,
the radio might totally drop out due to the low voltage.
Hook the battery up, and all is smoothed out. Both as far as
regulation,
and also filtering. If thats not acting like a large "apparent"
capacitor,
I don't know what is. The operation is different, but the end results
are
about the same. This is not something I've really thought about too
much,
but I've always considered the usual operating car battery to have many
farads of capacitance, at least as far as overall function. Maybe not
true
in the strict sense, as far as true caps go, but as far as the end
results
of placing it in the system. I dunno if this makes any sense or not..
:/
MK

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> nm5k@wt.net wrote:
> > Jim Yanik wrote:
> >
> >>Matt Ion <soundy106@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>news:Clegh.480395$5R2.401317@pd7urf3no:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Uh, the battery is nothing more thann a large capacitor.
> >>>
> >>>Actually, they're not. Capacitors /store/ electrical energy.
> >>>Batteries /create/ it via a chemical reaction. Charging a battery is
> >>>not storing energy; it's (to oversimplify) merely reversing the
> >>>checmical reaction.
> >>>
> >>
> >>The plates of a battery have capacitance.
> >>They are charged by the chemical reaction.
> >
> >
> > A car battery has many farads of capacitance. In other words,
> > it's a very stout capacitor..
>
> Not even close. The smaller the plates of a capacitor, the less the
> capacitance. The further apart they are, the less the capacitance. Lead-acid
> battery plates are EXTREMELY small and EXTREMELY far apart compared to a true
> capacitor's.
>
> If you were to drain the water from a battery and measure the capacitance, I
> suspect you'd find it in the low microfarads, if not picofarads.

Sure. The capacitance I mention is more of an apparant capacitance.
It's not true capacitance per say, but the normal operating car battery
does provide a large apparant capacitance to the system. But this would

not be the case with a non functioning battery.
I use car and deep cycle marine batteries to run radios here in the
house.
My chargers are unfiltered, but yet I have little noise to my radios.
The use of my battery as a cap is a bit different in operation vs a
true
capacitor, but the final apparant filtering is still there. If the
battery were
not acting as a cap of sorts, I would have hash and trash out the
kazoo..
I don't know if this makes any sense, as it's hard for me to describe
stuff
like this off the top of my head..
As a quite dangerous test you could try running a car radio off the
running
alternator with no battery connected. I bet it will be quite noisy,
fairly
unregulated as far as volume, etc vs rpm. IE: if the rpm dropped too
low,
the radio might totally drop out due to the low voltage.
Hook the battery up, and all is smoothed out. Both as far as
regulation,
and also filtering. If thats not acting like a large "apparent"
capacitor,
I don't know what is. The operation is different, but the end results
are
about the same. This is not something I've really thought about too
much,
but I've always considered the usual operating car battery to have many
farads of capacitance, at least as far as overall function. Maybe not
true
in the strict sense, as far as true caps go, but as far as the end
results
of placing it in the system. I dunno if this makes any sense or not..
:/
MK