Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

On 17 Aug 2005 00:18:54 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:

>flobert <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in
>news:i964g1ldlo539607tp90sbo18kput5n5ps@4ax.com :
>
>> On 16 Aug 2005 14:09:15 GMT, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote:
>>
>>>John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>>news:qTdMe.6594$1b5.4941@trnddc05:
>>>
>>>> Have any of these hackers crash tested their vehicles?
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what a rear end collision into a rear end filled with wet
>>>> cell lead-acid batteries would do?
>>>
>>>The guy in the article only used LA cells for initial tests;he then
>>>switched to NiMH. Others are using Li-ion cells.
>>
>> ok, crash test someone using lithium batteries. I'll personally take
>> hydrogen over that.
>
>Why?
>Please explain exactly what Lithium-ion batteries will do in a crash.

As has been well documented with Rc aircraft and especialy boats...

When puntured, they have a tendency to catch fire, or explode. reason
is simple - LITHIUM.
Lithium + water --> lithium hydroxide + hydrogen + ENERGY

Admitedly, if you put a piece of lithium in water, it just melts and
fizzes, but its also at or below room temp - a battery isn't. Also,
unlike potassium, and sometimes sodium, it doesn't get hot enough ina
nd of itself to make the hydrogen produced light. HOWEVER batterys do
get warm, there's lots of electrical sparts, and metal on metal. At
least a hydrogen tank is design to rupture safe, and, being a gas,
will dissipate the longer it goes without a spark. no so with lithium
- it constantly generates more hydrogen (moisture in the air,
donchaknow).

Anyway, thats just what i've read in the dangers of the battery type
in crash impacts. YMMV

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

>>>Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>
>>Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>
> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted
> by the anti-nuke idiots.

Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?

Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
to your child, nephew, pregant relative?

If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
you'll be the first person I've met that does.

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

>>>Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>
>>Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>
> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted
> by the anti-nuke idiots.

Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?

Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
to your child, nephew, pregant relative?

If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
you'll be the first person I've met that does.

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

Brian Stell <bstell@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:49AMe.2135$Z%6.1249@newssvr17.news.prodigy.co m...
> >>>Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
> >>
> >>Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
> >
> > Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted
> > by the anti-nuke idiots.
>
> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?
>
> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?
>
> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
> you'll be the first person I've met that does.

If the stuff is properly immobilized and shielded, why not?

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

Brian Stell <bstell@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:49AMe.2135$Z%6.1249@newssvr17.news.prodigy.co m...
> >>>Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
> >>
> >>Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
> >
> > Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted
> > by the anti-nuke idiots.
>
> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?
>
> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?
>
> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
> you'll be the first person I've met that does.

If the stuff is properly immobilized and shielded, why not?

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

"Brian Stell" <bstell@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:49AMe.2135$Z%6.1249@newssvr17.news.prodigy.co m...
>>>>Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>>
>>>Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>>
>> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted by the
>> anti-nuke idiots.
>
> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?
>
> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?
>
> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
> you'll be the first person I've met that does.

The irony is that there are many nuclear waste dumps across the nation right
now because of this attitude. Rather than sensibly storing the waste where
it will be less likely to be a problem, we have it distributed all over the
country. The fear of nuclear waste baffles me. You can easily detect it
and deal with it. The effects are known and understood. Many of the same
people who are so afraid of nuclear energy and waste don't realize that they
have much more hazardous products nearby that they will never even know
about. I grew up in the midst of chemical plants in Louisiana and would
trade a nuclear plant or storage facility for that in a second. You can
detect radiation easily. Do you know what you are breathing as a result of
the nearby plants and even the chemicals in use in your home? The relative
environmental impact of nuclear energy compared to even the cleanest of
fossil fuel generation or petro-chemical production is so small that I have
to wonder about the intelligence of those who are so petrified by it. Geez,
even many of the products that are produced and used everyday in the
chemical industry are more dangerous and impact more people than nuclear
waste.

Leonard

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

"Brian Stell" <bstell@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:49AMe.2135$Z%6.1249@newssvr17.news.prodigy.co m...
>>>>Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>>
>>>Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>>
>> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted by the
>> anti-nuke idiots.
>
> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?
>
> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?
>
> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
> you'll be the first person I've met that does.

The irony is that there are many nuclear waste dumps across the nation right
now because of this attitude. Rather than sensibly storing the waste where
it will be less likely to be a problem, we have it distributed all over the
country. The fear of nuclear waste baffles me. You can easily detect it
and deal with it. The effects are known and understood. Many of the same
people who are so afraid of nuclear energy and waste don't realize that they
have much more hazardous products nearby that they will never even know
about. I grew up in the midst of chemical plants in Louisiana and would
trade a nuclear plant or storage facility for that in a second. You can
detect radiation easily. Do you know what you are breathing as a result of
the nearby plants and even the chemicals in use in your home? The relative
environmental impact of nuclear energy compared to even the cleanest of
fossil fuel generation or petro-chemical production is so small that I have
to wonder about the intelligence of those who are so petrified by it. Geez,
even many of the products that are produced and used everyday in the
chemical industry are more dangerous and impact more people than nuclear
waste.

Leonard

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
news:ep95g15na5mcvfm78qgnng4vlv44sm8cls@4ax.com...
>>Please explain exactly what Lithium-ion batteries will do in a crash.
>
> As has been well documented with Rc aircraft and especialy boats...
>
> When puntured, they have a tendency to catch fire, or explode. reason
> is simple - LITHIUM.
> Lithium + water --> lithium hydroxide + hydrogen + ENERGY

How does that compare to a thin steel can full of 20 gallons of gasoline?

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
news:ep95g15na5mcvfm78qgnng4vlv44sm8cls@4ax.com...
>>Please explain exactly what Lithium-ion batteries will do in a crash.
>
> As has been well documented with Rc aircraft and especialy boats...
>
> When puntured, they have a tendency to catch fire, or explode. reason
> is simple - LITHIUM.
> Lithium + water --> lithium hydroxide + hydrogen + ENERGY

How does that compare to a thin steel can full of 20 gallons of gasoline?

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

Brian Stell wrote:
>>>> Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>>
>>
>> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted by the
>> anti-nuke idiots.
>
>
> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?

it really depends. here, we don't "handle" it, we just store it. if we
dealt with it properly, like everyone else, we'd reprocess it. so if it
were reprocessed, no problem. if it were properly stored, sure.
improper storage is your real concern, but again, a lot of fear is based
on misinformation.

>
> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?

technically, you get more radiation from coal power station fly ash.
which is used for cinder block. which builds homes. and from granite.
which is used in homes. there are many sources of background
ratiation, and many parts of the country, where humans happily live
where background is much higher than any emissions from your friendly
local storage facility.

>
> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
> you'll be the first person I've met that does.

it's nuts to freak without the full facts. sure, there's a lot of
misinformation around, on both sides, but the facts are plain: radiation
is part of our existance on this planet. we cannot avoid it. it makes
no sense to freak about the local power or storage facility if we're
getting higher doses from our basement that is full of radon & from the
cosmic rays that soak us every day of our lives. check out a bubble
chamber some time. it's just a foaming cauldron of vapor trails left by
the background radiation that is with us constantly.

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

Brian Stell wrote:
>>>> Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>>
>>
>> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted by the
>> anti-nuke idiots.
>
>
> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?

it really depends. here, we don't "handle" it, we just store it. if we
dealt with it properly, like everyone else, we'd reprocess it. so if it
were reprocessed, no problem. if it were properly stored, sure.
improper storage is your real concern, but again, a lot of fear is based
on misinformation.

>
> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?

technically, you get more radiation from coal power station fly ash.
which is used for cinder block. which builds homes. and from granite.
which is used in homes. there are many sources of background
ratiation, and many parts of the country, where humans happily live
where background is much higher than any emissions from your friendly
local storage facility.

>
> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
> you'll be the first person I've met that does.

it's nuts to freak without the full facts. sure, there's a lot of
misinformation around, on both sides, but the facts are plain: radiation
is part of our existance on this planet. we cannot avoid it. it makes
no sense to freak about the local power or storage facility if we're
getting higher doses from our basement that is full of radon & from the
cosmic rays that soak us every day of our lives. check out a bubble
chamber some time. it's just a foaming cauldron of vapor trails left by
the background radiation that is with us constantly.

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:23:48 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
wrote:

>Brian Stell wrote:
>>>>> Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted by the
>>> anti-nuke idiots.
>>
>>
>> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?
>
>it really depends. here, we don't "handle" it, we just store it. if we
>dealt with it properly, like everyone else, we'd reprocess it. so if it
>were reprocessed, no problem. if it were properly stored, sure.
>improper storage is your real concern, but again, a lot of fear is based
>on misinformation.
>
>>
>> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
>> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?
>
>technically, you get more radiation from coal power station fly ash.
>which is used for cinder block. which builds homes. and from granite.
> which is used in homes. there are many sources of background
>ratiation, and many parts of the country, where humans happily live
>where background is much higher than any emissions from your friendly
>local storage facility.
>
>>
>> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
>> you'll be the first person I've met that does.
>
>it's nuts to freak without the full facts. sure, there's a lot of
>misinformation around, on both sides, but the facts are plain: radiation
>is part of our existance on this planet. we cannot avoid it. it makes
>no sense to freak about the local power or storage facility if we're
>getting higher doses from our basement that is full of radon & from the
>cosmic rays that soak us every day of our lives. check out a bubble
>chamber some time. it's just a foaming cauldron of vapor trails left by
>the background radiation that is with us constantly.

Neutreno's actually. extremely weakly interacting particles of unknown
mass or size, that barely react or interact with anything. . one of
the big projects going on in europe right now is the Neutreno factory
-which aims to fire a stream from the uk to china, direct.
http://hepunx.rl.ac.uk/uknf/

Good link to plug the only large-scale distributed computing project
out there... (and which is a part of the above project)

Muon1 - www.stephenbrooks.org/muon1

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:23:48 -0700, jim beam <nospam@example.net>
wrote:

>Brian Stell wrote:
>>>>> Safe,clean nuclear power plants. Time to build more of them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ever heard of the nuclear waste problem?
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes,one more part that has been stifled and progress halted by the
>>> anti-nuke idiots.
>>
>>
>> Would you like a nuclear waste dump in your town?
>
>it really depends. here, we don't "handle" it, we just store it. if we
>dealt with it properly, like everyone else, we'd reprocess it. so if it
>were reprocessed, no problem. if it were properly stored, sure.
>improper storage is your real concern, but again, a lot of fear is based
>on misinformation.
>
>>
>> Would you recommend living near a nuclear waste dump
>> to your child, nephew, pregant relative?
>
>technically, you get more radiation from coal power station fly ash.
>which is used for cinder block. which builds homes. and from granite.
> which is used in homes. there are many sources of background
>ratiation, and many parts of the country, where humans happily live
>where background is much higher than any emissions from your friendly
>local storage facility.
>
>>
>> If you answer yes to these then more power to you but
>> you'll be the first person I've met that does.
>
>it's nuts to freak without the full facts. sure, there's a lot of
>misinformation around, on both sides, but the facts are plain: radiation
>is part of our existance on this planet. we cannot avoid it. it makes
>no sense to freak about the local power or storage facility if we're
>getting higher doses from our basement that is full of radon & from the
>cosmic rays that soak us every day of our lives. check out a bubble
>chamber some time. it's just a foaming cauldron of vapor trails left by
>the background radiation that is with us constantly.

Neutreno's actually. extremely weakly interacting particles of unknown
mass or size, that barely react or interact with anything. . one of
the big projects going on in europe right now is the Neutreno factory
-which aims to fire a stream from the uk to china, direct.
http://hepunx.rl.ac.uk/uknf/

Good link to plug the only large-scale distributed computing project
out there... (and which is a part of the above project)

Muon1 - www.stephenbrooks.org/muon1

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:16:39 -0400, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

>
>"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
>news:ep95g15na5mcvfm78qgnng4vlv44sm8cls@4ax.com.. .
>>>Please explain exactly what Lithium-ion batteries will do in a crash.
>>
>> As has been well documented with Rc aircraft and especialy boats...
>>
>> When puntured, they have a tendency to catch fire, or explode. reason
>> is simple - LITHIUM.
>> Lithium + water --> lithium hydroxide + hydrogen + ENERGY
>
>How does that compare to a thin steel can full of 20 gallons of gasoline?

1) generally not mounted by amateurs.
2) you have a fixed quantity of fuel, which is a liquid with flamable
vapours. drain the liquid, move it away, no problem. a series of
batteries is both producing its own combustion fuel as it goes along,
PLUS lithium burns itself.

Puncturing a petrol tank does not automatically lead to fire.
puncturing a lithium based battery can. I don't have bond energy's to
hand, so i'm not sure if it'd be preferable to have it hydrogenate, or
combust. maybe both happens - i've yet to see it happen under
controlled conditions.

>

Re: article: Plug-in Hybrid
 

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 06:16:39 -0400, "Steve Bigelow"
<stevebigelowXXX@rogers.com> wrote:

>
>"flobert" <nomail@here.NOT> wrote in message
>news:ep95g15na5mcvfm78qgnng4vlv44sm8cls@4ax.com.. .
>>>Please explain exactly what Lithium-ion batteries will do in a crash.
>>
>> As has been well documented with Rc aircraft and especialy boats...
>>
>> When puntured, they have a tendency to catch fire, or explode. reason
>> is simple - LITHIUM.
>> Lithium + water --> lithium hydroxide + hydrogen + ENERGY
>
>How does that compare to a thin steel can full of 20 gallons of gasoline?

1) generally not mounted by amateurs.
2) you have a fixed quantity of fuel, which is a liquid with flamable
vapours. drain the liquid, move it away, no problem. a series of
batteries is both producing its own combustion fuel as it goes along,
PLUS lithium burns itself.

Puncturing a petrol tank does not automatically lead to fire.
puncturing a lithium based battery can. I don't have bond energy's to
hand, so i'm not sure if it'd be preferable to have it hydrogenate, or
combust. maybe both happens - i've yet to see it happen under
controlled conditions.

>