Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>>jim beam wrote:
>>
>>>sharx333 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>>>
>>>>>it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>>>>pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>>>>it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>>>>>still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>>>>got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>>>>>use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>>>
>>>>>getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>>>>retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>>>>probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>>>>ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>>>>might it be located?
>>>>
>>>
>>>it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
>>>is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>>
>>Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>>
>>Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.
>>
>
>
> ...or my '82 & 83 Civics.
>
>
>
>
>>>regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
>>>bit is the sensor.
>>
>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>
>
>
> '82 is exempt and '83 soon will be!

Again, depends on your local laws. In BC, if the car came from the manufacturer
with a cat, then it must always have a cat. In most of the province, nobody
will usually notice or care, but legally it must still be there; in the
Vancouver area, where we also have emissions testing, the car won't pass if it
originally had a cat that's now missing, regardless of the year.

 

sharx333 wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>
>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>
>
> Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.

Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a cat is
"not essential".

> I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on this
> one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
> mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?

I'd suspect it's more likely the various parts were left out for cost savings,
with no regard for emissions OR mileage.

 

sharx333 wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>
>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>
>
> Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.

Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a cat is
"not essential".

> I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on this
> one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
> mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?

I'd suspect it's more likely the various parts were left out for cost savings,
with no regard for emissions OR mileage.

 

sharx333 wrote:
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>
>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>
>
> Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.

Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a cat is
"not essential".

> I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on this
> one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
> mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?

I'd suspect it's more likely the various parts were left out for cost savings,
with no regard for emissions OR mileage.

 

Ayon kay Matt Ion:
> >
> > Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>
> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a cat is
> "not essential".
>

Oh, no slight meant there, Matt. I was just making it clear that I'm
not contemplating anything illegal

Anyway, I'm somewhat confused by TeGGer's response over at
rec.autos.makers.honda, where he says that the O2 sensor is simply
there for emissions. He's a resident guru there and I'm inclined to
believe him, but OTOH when someone asks about poor mileage, group
posters usually point to the O2 sensor as the culprit. Also, most
references on the net say that the sensor is vital for normal running.

Anyone have any idea on how this ECU was tweaked to run without an
oxygen sensor? How does running in open loop affect things?

 

Ayon kay Matt Ion:
> >
> > Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>
> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a cat is
> "not essential".
>

Oh, no slight meant there, Matt. I was just making it clear that I'm
not contemplating anything illegal

Anyway, I'm somewhat confused by TeGGer's response over at
rec.autos.makers.honda, where he says that the O2 sensor is simply
there for emissions. He's a resident guru there and I'm inclined to
believe him, but OTOH when someone asks about poor mileage, group
posters usually point to the O2 sensor as the culprit. Also, most
references on the net say that the sensor is vital for normal running.

Anyone have any idea on how this ECU was tweaked to run without an
oxygen sensor? How does running in open loop affect things?

 

Ayon kay Matt Ion:
> >
> > Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>
> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a cat is
> "not essential".
>

Oh, no slight meant there, Matt. I was just making it clear that I'm
not contemplating anything illegal

Anyway, I'm somewhat confused by TeGGer's response over at
rec.autos.makers.honda, where he says that the O2 sensor is simply
there for emissions. He's a resident guru there and I'm inclined to
believe him, but OTOH when someone asks about poor mileage, group
posters usually point to the O2 sensor as the culprit. Also, most
references on the net say that the sensor is vital for normal running.

Anyone have any idea on how this ECU was tweaked to run without an
oxygen sensor? How does running in open loop affect things?

 

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:mVzNg.531073$Mn5.28949@pd7tw3no:

> sharx333 wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>>
>>
>> Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>
> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a
> cat is "not essential".
>
>> I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on
>> this one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
>> mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?
>
> I'd suspect it's more likely the various parts were left out for cost
> savings, with no regard for emissions OR mileage.
>

I'd guess that the Honda programmers would only edit/alter their ECU
program enough to ignore a missing sensor rather then write another
completely different one for mileage.

Some adventurous soul here could disconnect their O2 sensor and see if the
ECU then flashes the "check engine" light. A brief test.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:mVzNg.531073$Mn5.28949@pd7tw3no:

> sharx333 wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>>
>>
>> Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>
> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a
> cat is "not essential".
>
>> I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on
>> this one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
>> mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?
>
> I'd suspect it's more likely the various parts were left out for cost
> savings, with no regard for emissions OR mileage.
>

I'd guess that the Honda programmers would only edit/alter their ECU
program enough to ignore a missing sensor rather then write another
completely different one for mileage.

Some adventurous soul here could disconnect their O2 sensor and see if the
ECU then flashes the "check engine" light. A brief test.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Matt Ion <soundy@moltenimage.com> wrote in
news:mVzNg.531073$Mn5.28949@pd7tw3no:

> sharx333 wrote:
>> Matt Ion wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>>
>>
>> Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>
> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that a
> cat is "not essential".
>
>> I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on
>> this one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
>> mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?
>
> I'd suspect it's more likely the various parts were left out for cost
> savings, with no regard for emissions OR mileage.
>

I'd guess that the Honda programmers would only edit/alter their ECU
program enough to ignore a missing sensor rather then write another
completely different one for mileage.

Some adventurous soul here could disconnect their O2 sensor and see if the
ECU then flashes the "check engine" light. A brief test.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1158091621.370513.23010@d34g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com:

>
> Ayon kay Matt Ion:
>> >
>> > Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>>
>> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that
>> a cat is "not essential".
>>
>
> Oh, no slight meant there, Matt. I was just making it clear that I'm
> not contemplating anything illegal
>
> Anyway, I'm somewhat confused by TeGGer's response over at
> rec.autos.makers.honda, where he says that the O2 sensor is simply
> there for emissions. He's a resident guru there and I'm inclined to
> believe him, but OTOH when someone asks about poor mileage, group
> posters usually point to the O2 sensor as the culprit. Also, most
> references on the net say that the sensor is vital for normal running.
>
> Anyone have any idea on how this ECU was tweaked to run without an
> oxygen sensor? How does running in open loop affect things?
>
>

Open loop makes the fuel-air mix richer than optimal(for emissions) ALL the
time,just as it does until the engine warms up to operating temperature.You
have to avoid a too-lean condition in -all- operating conditions,to avoid
damaging the engine.

Closed loop optimizes the fuel-air mix for the leanest possible mix -
without- risking a too-lean condition that could burn a piston or make the
motor run too hot.It minimizes the extra hydrocarbons (rich exhaust)that
the cat-converter has to burn up,for best emissions.

You have a open-loop at the start because the catalytic has not warmed up
yet,nor has the motor.(coolant,plugs)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1158091621.370513.23010@d34g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com:

>
> Ayon kay Matt Ion:
>> >
>> > Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>>
>> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that
>> a cat is "not essential".
>>
>
> Oh, no slight meant there, Matt. I was just making it clear that I'm
> not contemplating anything illegal
>
> Anyway, I'm somewhat confused by TeGGer's response over at
> rec.autos.makers.honda, where he says that the O2 sensor is simply
> there for emissions. He's a resident guru there and I'm inclined to
> believe him, but OTOH when someone asks about poor mileage, group
> posters usually point to the O2 sensor as the culprit. Also, most
> references on the net say that the sensor is vital for normal running.
>
> Anyone have any idea on how this ECU was tweaked to run without an
> oxygen sensor? How does running in open loop affect things?
>
>

Open loop makes the fuel-air mix richer than optimal(for emissions) ALL the
time,just as it does until the engine warms up to operating temperature.You
have to avoid a too-lean condition in -all- operating conditions,to avoid
damaging the engine.

Closed loop optimizes the fuel-air mix for the leanest possible mix -
without- risking a too-lean condition that could burn a piston or make the
motor run too hot.It minimizes the extra hydrocarbons (rich exhaust)that
the cat-converter has to burn up,for best emissions.

You have a open-loop at the start because the catalytic has not warmed up
yet,nor has the motor.(coolant,plugs)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

"sharx333" <emil.santos@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1158091621.370513.23010@d34g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com:

>
> Ayon kay Matt Ion:
>> >
>> > Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it.
>>
>> Fair'nuff... it was more of a generic response to Jim's comment that
>> a cat is "not essential".
>>
>
> Oh, no slight meant there, Matt. I was just making it clear that I'm
> not contemplating anything illegal
>
> Anyway, I'm somewhat confused by TeGGer's response over at
> rec.autos.makers.honda, where he says that the O2 sensor is simply
> there for emissions. He's a resident guru there and I'm inclined to
> believe him, but OTOH when someone asks about poor mileage, group
> posters usually point to the O2 sensor as the culprit. Also, most
> references on the net say that the sensor is vital for normal running.
>
> Anyone have any idea on how this ECU was tweaked to run without an
> oxygen sensor? How does running in open loop affect things?
>
>

Open loop makes the fuel-air mix richer than optimal(for emissions) ALL the
time,just as it does until the engine warms up to operating temperature.You
have to avoid a too-lean condition in -all- operating conditions,to avoid
damaging the engine.

Closed loop optimizes the fuel-air mix for the leanest possible mix -
without- risking a too-lean condition that could burn a piston or make the
motor run too hot.It minimizes the extra hydrocarbons (rich exhaust)that
the cat-converter has to burn up,for best emissions.

You have a open-loop at the start because the catalytic has not warmed up
yet,nor has the motor.(coolant,plugs)

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

Jim Yanik said:
>
> Open loop makes the fuel-air mix richer than optimal(for emissions) ALL the
> time,just as it does until the engine warms up to operating temperature.You
> have to avoid a too-lean condition in -all- operating conditions,to avoid
> damaging the engine.
>
> Closed loop optimizes the fuel-air mix for the leanest possible mix -
> without- risking a too-lean condition that could burn a piston or make the
> motor run too hot.It minimizes the extra hydrocarbons (rich exhaust)that
> the cat-converter has to burn up,for best emissions.
>
> You have a open-loop at the start because the catalytic has not warmed up
> yet,nor has the motor.(coolant,plugs)
>


This makes a lot of sense.. So a sensor retrofit would be useful then?


> Some adventurous soul here could disconnect their O2 sensor and see if the
> ECU then flashes the "check engine" light. A brief test.


If only some kind soul would try this... But I think the ECU would
just throw a CEL. I'll look at the ECU pinouts today, and post back.

 

Jim Yanik said:
>
> Open loop makes the fuel-air mix richer than optimal(for emissions) ALL the
> time,just as it does until the engine warms up to operating temperature.You
> have to avoid a too-lean condition in -all- operating conditions,to avoid
> damaging the engine.
>
> Closed loop optimizes the fuel-air mix for the leanest possible mix -
> without- risking a too-lean condition that could burn a piston or make the
> motor run too hot.It minimizes the extra hydrocarbons (rich exhaust)that
> the cat-converter has to burn up,for best emissions.
>
> You have a open-loop at the start because the catalytic has not warmed up
> yet,nor has the motor.(coolant,plugs)
>


This makes a lot of sense.. So a sensor retrofit would be useful then?


> Some adventurous soul here could disconnect their O2 sensor and see if the
> ECU then flashes the "check engine" light. A brief test.


If only some kind soul would try this... But I think the ECU would
just throw a CEL. I'll look at the ECU pinouts today, and post back.