John Horner <jthorner@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:alpNg.1569$FS.37@trnddc04:

> sharx333 wrote:
>> John Horner wrote:
>>
>>> Fuel could also be an issue. In places where tetra ethyl lead
>>> continued to be used as an additive there would be an O2 sensor
>>> contamination issue. TEL was outlawed in the US many years ago,
>>> but much of the rest of the world continued to use it as an octane
>>> improver.
>>>
>>> That would explain the lack of O2 sensors in countries where the use
>>> of TEL continued.
>>
>>
>> That could be it! Unleaded fuel was introduced here in 1994, while
>> the EG line was from 1992-95. Is it true that leaded fuel could
>> damage the O2 sensor?
>>
>
> Absolutely. Leaded fuels also deteriorate spark plugs, but they are
> readily changed. In the days when leaded fuel was the norm in the US,
> typical spark plug change intervals were 12-15k miles. Now with
> unleaded fuel and slightly better spark plugs the norm is 100k miles.
>
> TEL leaves nasty deposits when it burns. These rapidly build up on
> oxygen sensors and ruin it. They also build up in exhaust systems and
> on exhaust valves. Oddly enough, the build-up on exhaust valves acts
> as a sort of solid lubricant. When the conversion to unleaded
> happened in the US, some older cars had very rapid exhaust valve seat
> wear due to the lack of TEL's valve lubricating side effect. Other
> than for exhaust valves, everything else about TEL fuel is a downside
> for the motor!
>
>
>> If this is the reason, and not cost-cutting, then could I simply, as
>> jim says, "retrofit" a sensor? (Taking care to use only unleaded
>> fuel, of course).
>
>
> You would need someone who really knows the Honda fuel injection
> system in detail to answer that. Perhaps you can get your hands on a
> parts manual for your version and the US version and try to compare
> what is different from one to the other. Maybe it is as simple as
> connecting an O2 sensor, maybe not. The US version is certainly
> capable of running open loop in the case of a failed O2 sensor.
>
> Do you have any friends in Honda's engineering department ??????
>
> John
>
>

I believe the ECU would be a different model than a US OBD-I ECU,as a US
ECU will set a code and light the check engine light if the O2 sensor
fails. "not present" counts as "failed".(open)
The Euro ECU's program would have to know to ignore the missing sensor,thus
a different ECU. ECU programming is fixed in PROM,thus a different PROM,and
a different ECU p/n.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

jim beam wrote:
> sharx333 wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>
>>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>
>>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>
>>
>> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>> might it be located?
>>
> it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
> is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.

Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.

Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.

> regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
> bit is the sensor.

The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

 

jim beam wrote:
> sharx333 wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>
>>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>
>>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>
>>
>> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>> might it be located?
>>
> it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
> is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.

Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.

Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.

> regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
> bit is the sensor.

The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

 

jim beam wrote:
> sharx333 wrote:
>
>>
>>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>
>>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>
>>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>
>>
>> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>> might it be located?
>>
> it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
> is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.

Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.

Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.

> regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
> bit is the sensor.

The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> sharx333 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>>
>>>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics.
>>>> but it
>>>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect
>>>> not to
>>>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>>
>>>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>>> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>>> might it be located?
>>>
>> it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
>> is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>
> Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>
> Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.

ok.

>
>> regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the
>> important bit is the sensor.
>
> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

indeed, but this is apparently not the case for the o.p.

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> sharx333 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>>
>>>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics.
>>>> but it
>>>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect
>>>> not to
>>>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>>
>>>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>>> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>>> might it be located?
>>>
>> it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
>> is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>
> Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>
> Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.

ok.

>
>> regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the
>> important bit is the sensor.
>
> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

indeed, but this is apparently not the case for the o.p.

 

Matt Ion wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> sharx333 wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>>
>>>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics.
>>>> but it
>>>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect
>>>> not to
>>>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>>
>>>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>>> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>>> might it be located?
>>>
>> it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
>> is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>
> Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>
> Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.

ok.

>
>> regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the
>> important bit is the sensor.
>
> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

indeed, but this is apparently not the case for the o.p.

 

Matt Ion wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
> > sharx333 wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
> >>>
> >>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
> >>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
> >>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
> >>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
> >>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
> >>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
> >>>
> >>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
> >>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
> >>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
> >>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
> >> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
> >> might it be located?
> >>
> > it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
> > is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>
> Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>
> Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.
>

....or my '82 & 83 Civics.



> > regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
> > bit is the sensor.
>
> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!


'82 is exempt and '83 soon will be!

JT

 

Matt Ion wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
> > sharx333 wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
> >>>
> >>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
> >>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
> >>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
> >>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
> >>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
> >>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
> >>>
> >>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
> >>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
> >>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
> >>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
> >> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
> >> might it be located?
> >>
> > it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
> > is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>
> Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>
> Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.
>

....or my '82 & 83 Civics.



> > regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
> > bit is the sensor.
>
> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!


'82 is exempt and '83 soon will be!

JT

 

Matt Ion wrote:
>
> jim beam wrote:
> > sharx333 wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>>> Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
> >>>
> >>> it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
> >>> pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
> >>> it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
> >>> still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
> >>> got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
> >>> use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
> >>>
> >>> getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
> >>> retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
> >>> probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
> >>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
> >> ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
> >> might it be located?
> >>
> > it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
> > is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>
> Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>
> Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.
>

....or my '82 & 83 Civics.



> > regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
> > bit is the sensor.
>
> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!


'82 is exempt and '83 soon will be!

JT

 

Matt Ion wrote:

> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it. Even today I
haven't seen any cars that have Cats. But regarding retrofit, TeGGer
over at rec.autos.makers.honda says:

"On road-going cars, the primary purpose of O2 sensors and their
associated hardware/software is emissions, not mileage. Any mileage
increase you see (if any), would be a bonus, and would be a
side-effect.
Some race cars use oxygen sensors to improve mileage during a race, but

these are using ECUs programmed for mileage. Stock ECUs are programmed
for emissions.
.. . .
You should count yourself lucky to live in a jurisdiction with more
reasonable emissions laws and thus a simpler vehicle. Honda OEM oxygen
sensors and cats are priced in the hundreds of dollars."



I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on this
one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?

 

Matt Ion wrote:

> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it. Even today I
haven't seen any cars that have Cats. But regarding retrofit, TeGGer
over at rec.autos.makers.honda says:

"On road-going cars, the primary purpose of O2 sensors and their
associated hardware/software is emissions, not mileage. Any mileage
increase you see (if any), would be a bonus, and would be a
side-effect.
Some race cars use oxygen sensors to improve mileage during a race, but

these are using ECUs programmed for mileage. Stock ECUs are programmed
for emissions.
.. . .
You should count yourself lucky to live in a jurisdiction with more
reasonable emissions laws and thus a simpler vehicle. Honda OEM oxygen
sensors and cats are priced in the hundreds of dollars."



I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on this
one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?

 

Matt Ion wrote:

> The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!

Actually the emissions laws here *don't* require it. Even today I
haven't seen any cars that have Cats. But regarding retrofit, TeGGer
over at rec.autos.makers.honda says:

"On road-going cars, the primary purpose of O2 sensors and their
associated hardware/software is emissions, not mileage. Any mileage
increase you see (if any), would be a bonus, and would be a
side-effect.
Some race cars use oxygen sensors to improve mileage during a race, but

these are using ECUs programmed for mileage. Stock ECUs are programmed
for emissions.
.. . .
You should count yourself lucky to live in a jurisdiction with more
reasonable emissions laws and thus a simpler vehicle. Honda OEM oxygen
sensors and cats are priced in the hundreds of dollars."



I respect TeGGer's responses, but do you guys think he's right on this
one? What if our cars here in the Philippines are programmed for
mileage, instead of emissions as TeGGer says?

 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>>jim beam wrote:
>>
>>>sharx333 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>>>
>>>>>it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>>>>pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>>>>it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>>>>>still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>>>>got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>>>>>use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>>>
>>>>>getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>>>>retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>>>>probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>>>>ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>>>>might it be located?
>>>>
>>>
>>>it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
>>>is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>>
>>Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>>
>>Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.
>>
>
>
> ...or my '82 & 83 Civics.
>
>
>
>
>>>regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
>>>bit is the sensor.
>>
>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>
>
>
> '82 is exempt and '83 soon will be!

Again, depends on your local laws. In BC, if the car came from the manufacturer
with a cat, then it must always have a cat. In most of the province, nobody
will usually notice or care, but legally it must still be there; in the
Vancouver area, where we also have emissions testing, the car won't pass if it
originally had a cat that's now missing, regardless of the year.

 

Grumpy AuContraire wrote:
>
> Matt Ion wrote:
>
>>jim beam wrote:
>>
>>>sharx333 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>>Am I missing something here?? Are our civics "crippled"?
>>>>>
>>>>>it certainly looks that way! john raises the good point about
>>>>>pre-catalyst injection systems not having sensors [i'd forgotten that -
>>>>>it's /so/ long since i've seen one!] and you've posted the pics. but it
>>>>>still amazes me. the cost of a sensor, in bulk, to a manufacturer has
>>>>>got to be less than $50. it's astonishing that honda would elect not to
>>>>>use one - maybe there was a legal reason.
>>>>>
>>>>>getting back to your original question, you can almost certainly
>>>>>retrofit, but there will obviously be wiring involved and it would
>>>>>probably require acquisition of a new ecu. interesting project though!
>>>>> and you may as well go for the vtec while you're at it!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Now that you mentioned it, it's also "common knowledge" here that this
>>>>ESi doesn't have a catalytic converter! I'll have to go check.. where
>>>>might it be located?
>>>>
>>>
>>>it's a huge bump in the exhaust, round about where the passenger seat
>>>is. but if you don't have an oxygen sensor, you won't have a cat.
>>
>>Tell that to my '87 Accords, all of which have had cats and no O2 sensors.
>>
>>Or my old '80 Mazda GLC, for that matter.
>>
>
>
> ...or my '82 & 83 Civics.
>
>
>
>
>>>regarding retrofit, it's not essential to have the cat. - the important
>>>bit is the sensor.
>>
>>The cat IS essential if your local emissions laws require it!
>
>
>
> '82 is exempt and '83 soon will be!

Again, depends on your local laws. In BC, if the car came from the manufacturer
with a cat, then it must always have a cat. In most of the province, nobody
will usually notice or care, but legally it must still be there; in the
Vancouver area, where we also have emissions testing, the car won't pass if it
originally had a cat that's now missing, regardless of the year.