Christ! I ask a question, and get attacked for it! God forbid I
should ask a question!

Did I accuse the dealer of doing anything wrong? NO! I asked a
friggin' questoin! How dare you attack me for it! You are a real and
absolute disgrace, Tegger!

> You know, if I were the dealer and I knew what you're doing just now, I'd
> never again ever do anything for you for free, nor would I ever again tell
> you if I found something minor and fixed it. You might try to cut my head
> off for my efforts. Or sue me. Or who knows what.

 

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article <r-mdnb-hRbSmalzVnZ2dnUVZ_u6dnZ2d@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> dealers that rip you off [for example] for whole new braking systems
>> after only 35k miles are neither fair nor friendly.
>
> You know, going back to my dealership story: there's exactly one tech I
> let touch my Hondas anymore. I don't know any of the others (with one
> exception, below), which isn't a huge deal, but I *do* know this one
> guy. We chat while he works on my car, believe it or not. He's very
> conscientious, and he's very good.
>
> Plus, the service manager is a square guy. Well....to me, anyway.
>
> There is one tech that this same dealership has allowed to continue on
> for many years. This guy is an out-and-out crook. They just let it
> happen. *I* know about it, but I know a bit more about the internals of
> the shop than the average customer. I also know more about cars, so
> this guy wouldn't get far with me--but as I said, I let one guy touch my
> Hondas. And it ain't him.
>
> So some of the "stealership" comments are true, to an extent, but
> believe it or not it's not the dealership per se. It may be one guy.

of the people i know where i talk about cars, if the person actually
knows anything, they tend to have a much more positive experience
getting their vehicle repaired. if they don't, it seems they usually
get the hose. women especially.

i used to live where there were mandatory vehicle safety inspections so
i /had/ to put up with other people touching my cars periodically. it
was amazing how the inspection guys /always/ managed to find something
wrong that they /had/ to repair at vast expense before passing the
vehicle. eg. new shocks allegedly required on a vehicle where they'd
been replaced less than 3 months prior. brake calipers that suddenly
had fluid leakage literally hours after they'd had seals replaced.
screw drivers jammed through underpanels to "detect" rust. it was an
ugly business.

eventually, i took to showing up at a shop where i'd had an "i'm going
to report you" conversation and they remembered me, wearing dirty
mechanic overalls, dirty hands, and with a a few tools scattered in the
passenger footwell so the tester got the message that the vehicle was
/not/ going to be theirs to repair. strangely my vehicles then used to
pass. even to the extent of a girlfriend's vehicle "failing" for her at
one test location, and passing with me at mine about an hour later, with
nothing done.

bottom line: apart from genuine incompetents, and there are plenty of
those, there is a very substantial undercurrent of dealers/repair shops
taking advantage of their customers' knowledge vacuum. but short of
signing up for evening classes on basic mechanics, something i doubt
would hurt /any/ vehicle operator, i don't think there's much the
average joe can do about it simply because they don't know enough about
what's going on.

 

Tony Hwang wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
>>>> 91CF97.21564405092008@news.x-privat.org:
>>>>
>>>>> In article <Xns9B10DE1DDECE0tegger@208.90.168.18>,
>>>>> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was told they found a nail
>>>>>>> in one of the tires, and they repaired it for free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For FREE!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FREE? You mean they fixed it for nothing? You got something from a
>>>>>> $tealer$hip for FREE?
>>>>> Tegger, I get lots of things from my Honda dealer for free.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was being (VERY) sarcastic.
>>>>
>>>> Our "JayN" idiot appears to be one of those persons who regard
>>>> franchised dealers as legal robbers, hence the tone of my response.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Just a few months ago, it was the second replacement idle air
>>>>> control valve. Yep. For free. They did the first replacement a
>>>>> year earlier for free, too. Van is an 02 model, currently with 62K
>>>>> on the clock. So both replacements were well out of warranty.
>>>>>
>>>>> I love it when I hear people make the cry of "stealership!". It
>>>>> shows a stubborn lack of understanding on their part of how the
>>>>> world works. Do I use the dealership? Yep. Do they take care of
>>>>> me? Absolutely. Have done so for 20 years now.
>>>>>
>>>>> My favorite story is taking my 79 Civic to this same dealership
>>>>> back in 86 or so, with a rusted front beam. I didn't know what was
>>>>> wrong, but they sure did. They wouldn't let me take it home, said
>>>>> to come back tomorrow, all fixed. I did, and it was.
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on that, I bought a second 79 Civic for my now-wife. It
>>>>> developed the same problem, and we had the same result.
>>>>>
>>>>> And after that came the rusting gas tanks, due to bad design.
>>>>> Handled.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My local Acura dealer has always been very fair with me, including
>>>> admitting when certain work was beyond their abilities or economics.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Hmmm,
>>> My Honda dealership is very fair, friendly place too. They do good
>>> work, their techs are knowledgable, when I leave car for the day to
>>> servie it,
>>> they of course will give me a ride across town to my work but instead
>>> they give me transit token so I can ride light rail saving time. Of
>>> course they give me a ride to the station. Dealerships are mode of
>>> people, not heartless robots. Remember it's two way street in human
>>> relations.
>>
>> dealers that rip you off [for example] for whole new braking systems
>> after only 35k miles are neither fair nor friendly.
> Hi,
> If you are talking to me, I never did any brake job done after 35K
> miles. At any rate do you think I am stupid/dumb enough to be ripped off?
>

nothing personal to you. i'm simply saying that a friend of mine got
ripped for a whole new brake system on their civic, not once, but twice
in fact. first time at 35k, second about 20k later iirc. honda dealer.

 

jim beam wrote:
> Tony Hwang wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
>>>>> 91CF97.21564405092008@news.x-privat.org:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In article <Xns9B10DE1DDECE0tegger@208.90.168.18>,
>>>>>> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was told they found a nail
>>>>>>>> in one of the tires, and they repaired it for free.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For FREE!?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FREE? You mean they fixed it for nothing? You got something from a
>>>>>>> $tealer$hip for FREE?
>>>>>> Tegger, I get lots of things from my Honda dealer for free.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I was being (VERY) sarcastic.
>>>>>
>>>>> Our "JayN" idiot appears to be one of those persons who regard
>>>>> franchised dealers as legal robbers, hence the tone of my response.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Just a few months ago, it was the second replacement idle air
>>>>>> control valve. Yep. For free. They did the first replacement a
>>>>>> year earlier for free, too. Van is an 02 model, currently with
>>>>>> 62K on the clock. So both replacements were well out of warranty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I love it when I hear people make the cry of "stealership!". It
>>>>>> shows a stubborn lack of understanding on their part of how the
>>>>>> world works. Do I use the dealership? Yep. Do they take care of
>>>>>> me? Absolutely. Have done so for 20 years now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My favorite story is taking my 79 Civic to this same dealership
>>>>>> back in 86 or so, with a rusted front beam. I didn't know what
>>>>>> was wrong, but they sure did. They wouldn't let me take it home,
>>>>>> said to come back tomorrow, all fixed. I did, and it was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Based on that, I bought a second 79 Civic for my now-wife. It
>>>>>> developed the same problem, and we had the same result.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And after that came the rusting gas tanks, due to bad design.
>>>>>> Handled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My local Acura dealer has always been very fair with me, including
>>>>> admitting when certain work was beyond their abilities or economics.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Hmmm,
>>>> My Honda dealership is very fair, friendly place too. They do good
>>>> work, their techs are knowledgable, when I leave car for the day to
>>>> servie it,
>>>> they of course will give me a ride across town to my work but
>>>> instead they give me transit token so I can ride light rail saving
>>>> time. Of course they give me a ride to the station. Dealerships are
>>>> mode of people, not heartless robots. Remember it's two way street
>>>> in human relations.
>>>
>>> dealers that rip you off [for example] for whole new braking systems
>>> after only 35k miles are neither fair nor friendly.
>> Hi,
>> If you are talking to me, I never did any brake job done after 35K
>> miles. At any rate do you think I am stupid/dumb enough to be ripped off?
>>
>
> nothing personal to you. i'm simply saying that a friend of mine got
> ripped for a whole new brake system on their civic, not once, but twice
> in fact. first time at 35k, second about 20k later iirc. honda dealer.
Hi,
My dealer does not do anything major on thier own. They call to discuss
and request permission to go ahead and do the job.

 

JayN wrote:
> Christ! I ask a question, and get attacked for it! God forbid I
> should ask a question!
>
> Did I accuse the dealer of doing anything wrong? NO! I asked a
> friggin' questoin! How dare you attack me for it! You are a real and
> absolute disgrace, Tegger!

er, the "absolute disgrace" would be you.

1. tegger is easily the most significant asset this group has - you
should be grateful for his efforts at tegger.com. and

2. if you could be bothered to read what he said properly, or had the
comprehension skills, you'd figure out that while he may be sarcastic,
he's dead right. acura didn't repair your car, the franchisee did. and
if they didn't charge you for the repair, then you didn't get ripped off.



>
>> You know, if I were the dealer and I knew what you're doing just now, I'd
>> never again ever do anything for you for free, nor would I ever again tell
>> you if I found something minor and fixed it. You might try to cut my head
>> off for my efforts. Or sue me. Or who knows what.
>

 

Tony Hwang wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>>>> Tegger wrote:
>>>>>> "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote in news:elmop-
>>>>>> 91CF97.21564405092008@news.x-privat.org:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article <Xns9B10DE1DDECE0tegger@208.90.168.18>,
>>>>>>> Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I was told they found a nail
>>>>>>>>> in one of the tires, and they repaired it for free.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For FREE!?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> FREE? You mean they fixed it for nothing? You got something from a
>>>>>>>> $tealer$hip for FREE?
>>>>>>> Tegger, I get lots of things from my Honda dealer for free.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was being (VERY) sarcastic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our "JayN" idiot appears to be one of those persons who regard
>>>>>> franchised dealers as legal robbers, hence the tone of my response.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just a few months ago, it was the second replacement idle air
>>>>>>> control valve. Yep. For free. They did the first replacement a
>>>>>>> year earlier for free, too. Van is an 02 model, currently with
>>>>>>> 62K on the clock. So both replacements were well out of warranty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I love it when I hear people make the cry of "stealership!". It
>>>>>>> shows a stubborn lack of understanding on their part of how the
>>>>>>> world works. Do I use the dealership? Yep. Do they take care
>>>>>>> of me? Absolutely. Have done so for 20 years now.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My favorite story is taking my 79 Civic to this same dealership
>>>>>>> back in 86 or so, with a rusted front beam. I didn't know what
>>>>>>> was wrong, but they sure did. They wouldn't let me take it home,
>>>>>>> said to come back tomorrow, all fixed. I did, and it was.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Based on that, I bought a second 79 Civic for my now-wife. It
>>>>>>> developed the same problem, and we had the same result.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And after that came the rusting gas tanks, due to bad design.
>>>>>>> Handled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My local Acura dealer has always been very fair with me, including
>>>>>> admitting when certain work was beyond their abilities or economics.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm,
>>>>> My Honda dealership is very fair, friendly place too. They do good
>>>>> work, their techs are knowledgable, when I leave car for the day to
>>>>> servie it,
>>>>> they of course will give me a ride across town to my work but
>>>>> instead they give me transit token so I can ride light rail saving
>>>>> time. Of course they give me a ride to the station. Dealerships are
>>>>> mode of people, not heartless robots. Remember it's two way street
>>>>> in human relations.
>>>>
>>>> dealers that rip you off [for example] for whole new braking systems
>>>> after only 35k miles are neither fair nor friendly.
>>> Hi,
>>> If you are talking to me, I never did any brake job done after 35K
>>> miles. At any rate do you think I am stupid/dumb enough to be ripped
>>> off?
>>>
>>
>> nothing personal to you. i'm simply saying that a friend of mine got
>> ripped for a whole new brake system on their civic, not once, but
>> twice in fact. first time at 35k, second about 20k later iirc. honda
>> dealer.
> Hi,
> My dealer does not do anything major on thier own. They call to discuss
> and request permission to go ahead and do the job.

so if they blow smoke up your skirt about the whole braking system
needing to be replaced because the vehicle is supposedly "dangerous to
drive" after only 35k miles, would you give them the go-ahead over the
phone?

 

JayN <JReality@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:8f770464-4f9b-41be-aaa2-47f50bca4ca0@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:

> Christ! I ask a question, and get attacked for it! God forbid I
> should ask a question!



I apologize for the use of the word "idiot".

You asked the same question numerous times in at least two groups. It
looked like you were fishing for someone to say "no" and would keep asking
the same question until someone did.


>
> Did I accuse the dealer of doing anything wrong? NO!



Sure seemed like it. You appeared to me to be deeply suspicious of what the
dealer had done, and were going to keep hounding the question until you got
the answer you wanted.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

In article <Xns9B115C2CDA65Etegger@208.90.168.18>,
Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv> wrote:

> You asked the same question numerous times in at least two groups. It
> looked like you were fishing for someone to say "no" and would keep asking
> the same question until someone did.

"shopping for the answer I like". Happens all the time.



> You appeared to me to be deeply suspicious of what the
> dealer had done, and were going to keep hounding the question until you got
> the answer you wanted.

that's how I saw it.

 

Thanks for apologizing. Sorry I snapped back at you.

Maybe I am behind the times, but I was mainly just skeptical about the
idea of plugging a tire from the outside to repair a leak (never had
one done to any of my tires before) and wanted to get some opinions.
It seems that some people don't trust plugs, but a lot of people say
they are fine.

I did ask the original question 2 times (once in this group and once
in the acura group). Two posts doesn't seem numerous.

I probably don't trust the dealer as much as I should, since they are
in a position of power.

Anyway, thanks for your opinion about the plugs.

Thanks,

J
----------------------------------------

On Sep 6, 9:02 am, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> JayN <JReal...@hotmail.com> wrote innews:8f770464-4f9b-41be-aaa2-47f50bca4ca0@d77g2000hsb.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Christ! I ask a question, and get attacked for it! God forbid I
> > should ask a question!
>
> I apologize for the use of the word "idiot".
>
> You asked the same question numerous times in at least two groups. It
> looked like you were fishing for someone to say "no" and would keep asking
> the same question until someone did.
>
>
>
> > Did I accuse the dealer of doing anything wrong? NO!
>
> Sure seemed like it. You appeared to me to be deeply suspicious of what the
> dealer had done, and were going to keep hounding the question until you got
> the answer you wanted.
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

I don't think I was hounding it. I did ask it on two different groups
though.

> that's how I saw it.

 

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:072dnYb7Ab25jl_VnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:

> Tony Hwang wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> Tony Hwang wrote:

>>>> Hi,
>>>> If you are talking to me, I never did any brake job done after 35K
>>>> miles. At any rate do you think I am stupid/dumb enough to be
>>>> ripped off?
>>>>
>>>
>>> nothing personal to you. i'm simply saying that a friend of mine
>>> got ripped for a whole new brake system on their civic, not once,
>>> but twice in fact. first time at 35k, second about 20k later iirc.
>>> honda dealer.
>> Hi,
>> My dealer does not do anything major on thier own. They call to
>> discuss and request permission to go ahead and do the job.
>
> so if they blow smoke up your skirt about the whole braking system
> needing to be replaced because the vehicle is supposedly "dangerous to
> drive" after only 35k miles, would you give them the go-ahead over the
> phone?
>
>



Absolutely not. I'd get a second opinion.

Which is exactly what we did last year when the local Toyota dealer claimed
we needed a new A/C condenser at the cost of $1,400. A second opinion from
another garage showed a new condenser was not required. The job was done at
that garage for $80, and the system is still working fine.

I'd say errors and incompetence outnumber "ripoffs" at least 100 to one.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

Tegger wrote:
> jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
> news:072dnYb7Ab25jl_VnZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:
>
>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>> Tony Hwang wrote:
>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> If you are talking to me, I never did any brake job done after 35K
>>>>> miles. At any rate do you think I am stupid/dumb enough to be
>>>>> ripped off?
>>>>>
>>>> nothing personal to you. i'm simply saying that a friend of mine
>>>> got ripped for a whole new brake system on their civic, not once,
>>>> but twice in fact. first time at 35k, second about 20k later iirc.
>>>> honda dealer.
>>> Hi,
>>> My dealer does not do anything major on thier own. They call to
>>> discuss and request permission to go ahead and do the job.
>> so if they blow smoke up your skirt about the whole braking system
>> needing to be replaced because the vehicle is supposedly "dangerous to
>> drive" after only 35k miles, would you give them the go-ahead over the
>> phone?
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Absolutely not. I'd get a second opinion.
>
> Which is exactly what we did last year when the local Toyota dealer claimed
> we needed a new A/C condenser at the cost of $1,400. A second opinion from
> another garage showed a new condenser was not required. The job was done at
> that garage for $80, and the system is still working fine.
>
> I'd say errors and incompetence outnumber "ripoffs" at least 100 to one.
>
>

i disagree because i've seen it both ways - you, as a known quantity,
going back to the same old shops, and as a male [sorry ladies - car
repairers are biased] are not going to get the same smoke blown up you
as someone else that's known to be unaware. therefore your experience
will reflect that. however, i, as a person that is messed up enough to
like doing this stuff, will go into a shop "dumb", and enjoy the
bullshit of them talking their way into trouble. especially if i go in
dressed as "never-touch-a-car business dude" vs. "d.i.y. car repair
dude". or with a girlfriend and let her do the talking while i casually
stand about like we don't know each other.

there /are/ competent honest people about, but there are a /lot/ of
sharks in the auto biz. and they exploit the unaware.

 

jim beam <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote in
news:4eudnTxj1MDuNF_VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@speakeasy.ne t:


>
> there /are/ competent honest people about, but there are a /lot/ of
> sharks in the auto biz. and they exploit the unaware.
>
>


If there is exploitation (and I do believe there is), I think it's more
because those repairmen get lazy and careless when dealing with the unaware
and take the easy route, knowing it's unlikely they'll be challenged on
their diagnosis.

It was my wife who brought the Tercel in to that Toyota dealer, and it was
she who was told the car needed a new A/C condenser. Shocked at the $1,400
quote, she told them she had to talk to me before allowing the work to be
done.

Would I have been told the same thing had I been the one to bring the car
in? Given the way the service advisor talked to me when I did call, I
suspect I would have. The advisor was certainly lazy and careless; among
other things, he never did ask the tech how he arrived at his diagnosis.
Given the value of the repair and knowing how the car's owner might be
expected to react to it, you would think he would have made absolutely sure
the diagnosis was correct before hitting the customer with it, and yet he
did nothing of the sort.

--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 08:42:28 -0700 (PDT), JayN <JReality@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Maybe I am behind the times, but I was mainly just skeptical about the
>idea of plugging a tire from the outside to repair a leak (never had
>one done to any of my tires before) and wanted to get some opinions.

Well, now that everybody has hugged and made up, I will throw in my
$0,02 worth.

When radials replaced bias ply tires, plugs were found to distort the
tread and possible affect handling. So patching became the preferred
method. The gold standard was a "hot" patch, which actually melted to
the tire becoming permanent.

Then, radial tire plugs became available. They do not distort the
tread because over a few miles of driving the plug vulcanizes itself
to the tire, becoming permanent. The advantage is this permanent
repair can be done without dismounting the tire.

Now, the new gold standard seems to be a combination patch and plug.
The plug is inserted through the hole from the inside (thus requiring
taking the tire off of the rim) and also has a patch attached. The
plug vulcanizes to the tread and the patch glues itself to the inside
of the tire. The only real advantage of this kind of repair, I
understand, is that it preserves the speed rating of high speed
capability tires.

By the way, I did not know some of this stuff until I researched it on
the Internet. Google is your friend.



Elliot Richmond
Itinerant astronomy teacher

 

Elliot Richmond <xmrichmond@xaustin.xrr.xcom> wrote in
news:vup5c4hk4255jeqs05mbuh1otjfak2l2vc@4ax.com:

> On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 08:42:28 -0700 (PDT), JayN <JReality@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Maybe I am behind the times, but I was mainly just skeptical about the
>>idea of plugging a tire from the outside to repair a leak (never had
>>one done to any of my tires before) and wanted to get some opinions.
>
> Well, now that everybody has hugged and made up, I will throw in my
> $0,02 worth.
>
> When radials replaced bias ply tires, plugs were found to distort the
> tread and possible affect handling. So patching became the preferred
> method. The gold standard was a "hot" patch, which actually melted to
> the tire becoming permanent.
>
> Then, radial tire plugs became available. They do not distort the
> tread because over a few miles of driving the plug vulcanizes itself
> to the tire, becoming permanent. The advantage is this permanent
> repair can be done without dismounting the tire.
>
> Now, the new gold standard seems to be a combination patch and plug.
> The plug is inserted through the hole from the inside (thus requiring
> taking the tire off of the rim) and also has a patch attached. The
> plug vulcanizes to the tread and the patch glues itself to the inside
> of the tire. The only real advantage of this kind of repair, I
> understand, is that it preserves the speed rating of high speed
> capability tires.
>
> By the way, I did not know some of this stuff until I researched it on
> the Internet. Google is your friend.
>
>


This is interesting information, but I must confess to some skepticism.

Outside of the carcass, a plug s to approximately a quarter-inch
in diameter and visibly distorts the tread, even with a radial plug (or
patch/plug combo) and a radial tire. Distortion is not much of a
practical issue with any plug or patch/plug combo.

It's my understanding that the "vulcanizing" that fixes a plug and/or
patch to a tire is a chemical reaction that results in the rubbers being
melted and mixed together in a sort of weld, much like airplane model
glues and the plastics used in those models. Plugs have always operated
in this manner, any increased reliability coming from improved
adhesives. Adhesives in the early '70s (when bias tires were last
common) were nothing like today's, and I'm sure there were instances of
adhesive failing and resulting in plug leaks.

It's also my understanding that the patch/plug combo is intended
primarily for very new or expensive tires, where the value of the tire
makes it worthwhile to incur the labor expense of dismounting and
remounting the tire for the sake of some reduction in the possibility of
failure. The older or more worn the tire, the less economic sense it
makes to take the belt-and-suspenders approach of a patch/plug combo,
especially considering the low failure ratio of properly-installed
modern plugs.



--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/