Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

<david.borhani@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:1182719601.461804.130470@u2g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its
> mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing
> marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth
> before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus,
> T-belt is off by one tooth.
>
> You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to
> do the job right, they would! Have they no pride??
>
> Now one of my 3 belts on the crank pulley is squeaking a bit. (I had
> to work the belts off to see the marks on the pulley.) I assume it
> can wait until the car goes back for the T-belt (& distributor, and
> coolant-reflush, and idle speed adj.), I hope tomorrow?
>
>

In their defense, it is a bit of a struggle to get the belt to go on right;
the cam doesn't like to sit at TDC. (That's why so many of us were
suspecting it!) But you're right - professionals should not only get it
right, they should triple-check it is right before buttoning it up.

Mike

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

<david.borhani@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:1182719601.461804.130470@u2g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its
> mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing
> marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth
> before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus,
> T-belt is off by one tooth.
>
> You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to
> do the job right, they would! Have they no pride??
>

One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after
timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt
a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is,
but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way
it came off. Feh!

Mike

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

<david.borhani@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:1182719601.461804.130470@u2g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its
> mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing
> marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth
> before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus,
> T-belt is off by one tooth.
>
> You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to
> do the job right, they would! Have they no pride??
>

One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after
timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt
a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is,
but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way
it came off. Feh!

Mike

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

<david.borhani@alum.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:1182719601.461804.130470@u2g2000hsc.googlegro ups.com...
> Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its
> mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing
> marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth
> before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus,
> T-belt is off by one tooth.
>
> You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to
> do the job right, they would! Have they no pride??
>

One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after
timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt
a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is,
but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way
it came off. Feh!

Mike

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

> One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after
> timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt
> a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is,
> but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way
> it came off. Feh!

That's the wierd thing. It idles a bit rough, I think, but someone who
didn't know the car would likely think nothing of it. Then of course
the idle dropout (clearly something new, something wrong). And lastly,
the sense at high speeds that the car is really struggling. It used to
cruise at 85 mph down the Mass Pike no problem. Now, it's clearly
topping the engine out. I'm amazed that it runs at all with the valves
opening/closing ~10 degrees before (after) they should!

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

> One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after
> timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt
> a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is,
> but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way
> it came off. Feh!

That's the wierd thing. It idles a bit rough, I think, but someone who
didn't know the car would likely think nothing of it. Then of course
the idle dropout (clearly something new, something wrong). And lastly,
the sense at high speeds that the car is really struggling. It used to
cruise at 85 mph down the Mass Pike no problem. Now, it's clearly
topping the engine out. I'm amazed that it runs at all with the valves
opening/closing ~10 degrees before (after) they should!

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

> One point I forgot to mention: having to readjust the ignition timing after
> timing belt change is a *huge* red flag pointing to getting the timing belt
> a tooth off. The engine runs terribly if not readjusted and badly if it is,
> but simply having to change the timing means the belt didn't go on the way
> it came off. Feh!

That's the wierd thing. It idles a bit rough, I think, but someone who
didn't know the car would likely think nothing of it. Then of course
the idle dropout (clearly something new, something wrong). And lastly,
the sense at high speeds that the car is really struggling. It used to
cruise at 85 mph down the Mass Pike no problem. Now, it's clearly
topping the engine out. I'm amazed that it runs at all with the valves
opening/closing ~10 degrees before (after) they should!

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
> Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its
> mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing
> marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth
> before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus,
> T-belt is off by one tooth.
>
> You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to
> do the job right, they would! Have they no pride??

usually just the apprentice. and i guarantee they never followed the
honda service manual to the letter - which you absolutely must do. in
this respect, you might be better off doing the job yourself now you
have the lid off.

anyway, congrats on persisting enough to get the diagnosis done!

>
> Now one of my 3 belts on the crank pulley is squeaking a bit. (I had
> to work the belts off to see the marks on the pulley.) I assume it
> can wait until the car goes back for the T-belt (& distributor, and
> coolant-reflush, and idle speed adj.), I hope tomorrow?
>

after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
covers off.

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
> Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its
> mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing
> marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth
> before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus,
> T-belt is off by one tooth.
>
> You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to
> do the job right, they would! Have they no pride??

usually just the apprentice. and i guarantee they never followed the
honda service manual to the letter - which you absolutely must do. in
this respect, you might be better off doing the job yourself now you
have the lid off.

anyway, congrats on persisting enough to get the diagnosis done!

>
> Now one of my 3 belts on the crank pulley is squeaking a bit. (I had
> to work the belts off to see the marks on the pulley.) I assume it
> can wait until the car goes back for the T-belt (& distributor, and
> coolant-reflush, and idle speed adj.), I hope tomorrow?
>

after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
covers off.

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
> Checked T-belt position on cam & crank pulleys. W/ cam pulley at its
> mark, crank is ~10 degrees past TDC (single mark for TDC, and 3 timing
> marks at 14, 16, 18 deg. BTDC). With crank at TDC, cam is ~1 tooth
> before its mark. Cam pulley has 38 teeth, i.e. ~9.5 deg./tooth. Thus,
> T-belt is off by one tooth.
>
> You would think when you pay professionals a good chunk of change to
> do the job right, they would! Have they no pride??

usually just the apprentice. and i guarantee they never followed the
honda service manual to the letter - which you absolutely must do. in
this respect, you might be better off doing the job yourself now you
have the lid off.

anyway, congrats on persisting enough to get the diagnosis done!

>
> Now one of my 3 belts on the crank pulley is squeaking a bit. (I had
> to work the belts off to see the marks on the pulley.) I assume it
> can wait until the car goes back for the T-belt (& distributor, and
> coolant-reflush, and idle speed adj.), I hope tomorrow?
>

after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
covers off.

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

> after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
> lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
> covers off.

They did the valve clearance adjustment, twice! First time car seemed
like it didn't just have tons of work done ---- felt even "older".
After I insisted, they re-checked clearance, found it "way too loose",
and corrected it, at which point the car is now, with much improved
idle problem. The offset T-belt shouldn't affect valve clearance,
should it? Or does the T-belt/timing need to be correct so that you
know that the valve is closed/open the right amount at the right time?
(Is valve lash is same as valve clearance?)

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

> after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
> lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
> covers off.

They did the valve clearance adjustment, twice! First time car seemed
like it didn't just have tons of work done ---- felt even "older".
After I insisted, they re-checked clearance, found it "way too loose",
and corrected it, at which point the car is now, with much improved
idle problem. The offset T-belt shouldn't affect valve clearance,
should it? Or does the T-belt/timing need to be correct so that you
know that the valve is closed/open the right amount at the right time?
(Is valve lash is same as valve clearance?)

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

> after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
> lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
> covers off.

They did the valve clearance adjustment, twice! First time car seemed
like it didn't just have tons of work done ---- felt even "older".
After I insisted, they re-checked clearance, found it "way too loose",
and corrected it, at which point the car is now, with much improved
idle problem. The offset T-belt shouldn't affect valve clearance,
should it? Or does the T-belt/timing need to be correct so that you
know that the valve is closed/open the right amount at the right time?
(Is valve lash is same as valve clearance?)

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
>> after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
>> lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
>> covers off.
>
> They did the valve clearance adjustment, twice! First time car seemed
> like it didn't just have tons of work done ---- felt even "older".
> After I insisted, they re-checked clearance, found it "way too loose",
> and corrected it, at which point the car is now, with much improved
> idle problem. The offset T-belt shouldn't affect valve clearance,
> should it? Or does the T-belt/timing need to be correct so that you
> know that the valve is closed/open the right amount at the right time?
> (Is valve lash is same as valve clearance?)
>
cam timing affects performance big time. valve lash much less so, but
still a factor.

either way, judging by your experience with these guys, you should
consider absorbing the extra cost and just take it to an independent
honda specialist. continued ineptitude will cost you a good deal more
in the long run. if you want to take it back to the same place to prove
a point, /insist/ on having a senior mechanic do the work. insist on
meeting them - before and after.

Re: '92 Civic DX Hatchback Idle dropout problem
 

david.borhani@alum.mit.edu wrote:
>> after all this, you may not need the idle adjust done at all! add valve
>> lash to the list of things to do as now's the time to do it with all the
>> covers off.
>
> They did the valve clearance adjustment, twice! First time car seemed
> like it didn't just have tons of work done ---- felt even "older".
> After I insisted, they re-checked clearance, found it "way too loose",
> and corrected it, at which point the car is now, with much improved
> idle problem. The offset T-belt shouldn't affect valve clearance,
> should it? Or does the T-belt/timing need to be correct so that you
> know that the valve is closed/open the right amount at the right time?
> (Is valve lash is same as valve clearance?)
>
cam timing affects performance big time. valve lash much less so, but
still a factor.

either way, judging by your experience with these guys, you should
consider absorbing the extra cost and just take it to an independent
honda specialist. continued ineptitude will cost you a good deal more
in the long run. if you want to take it back to the same place to prove
a point, /insist/ on having a senior mechanic do the work. insist on
meeting them - before and after.