Jonathan Upright <qaesar1@carolina.rr.com> wrote in
news:4yDze.768$XA.10271@twister.southeast.rr.com:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message
>> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now...
>>
>>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they
>>>>mount heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using
>>>>the solder for
>>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car
>>>>chassis so the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A
>>>>lot of mfrs do it because the problem rarely shows up within the
>>>>warranty period.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>
>>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the
>>>chassis with
>>>some rubber bushings?
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>>
>> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could
>> make a big difference.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
> Or do what I did, leave it dangling under the dash...it works fine,
> and it's readily accessible if it ever fails again. ;-)
>
> Jonathan

Leave it dangling to short out something,or to flex or abrade the wires for
another type of failure. Or a under-dash fire.

Bolt it back down after resoldering,and it will be fine.Probably last
longer than the rest of the car.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message
>> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now...
>>
>>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they
>>>>mount heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using
>>>>the solder for
>>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car
>>>>chassis so the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A
>>>>lot of mfrs do it because the problem rarely shows up within the
>>>>warranty period.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>
>>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the
>>>chassis with
>>>some rubber bushings?
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>>
>> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could
>> make a big difference.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
> i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's
> more shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely
> thermal fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down.

And/or mechanical stress from the relay action.(relay frame and contacts
flexing under operation,along with thermal stress)


> those
> things run much too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to
> crud accumulation, so you can't win. best design would be something
> with mechanical [screw] mountings for the relay chassis, not the
> soldered ones like present, a thermal conduction path from the relay
> chassis to the external mounting, and restrict solder only to the
> electricals. but that would likely cost double the current
> arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old, and a new relay
> will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to buy a new
> one & forget about it.
>
>

Exactly.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net:

> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message
>> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now...
>>
>>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they
>>>>mount heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using
>>>>the solder for
>>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car
>>>>chassis so the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A
>>>>lot of mfrs do it because the problem rarely shows up within the
>>>>warranty period.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>
>>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the
>>>chassis with
>>>some rubber bushings?
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>>
>> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could
>> make a big difference.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
> i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's
> more shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely
> thermal fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down.

And/or mechanical stress from the relay action.(relay frame and contacts
flexing under operation,along with thermal stress)


> those
> things run much too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to
> crud accumulation, so you can't win. best design would be something
> with mechanical [screw] mountings for the relay chassis, not the
> soldered ones like present, a thermal conduction path from the relay
> chassis to the external mounting, and restrict solder only to the
> electricals. but that would likely cost double the current
> arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old, and a new relay
> will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to buy a new
> one & forget about it.
>
>

Exactly.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns968DCCE6B9162tegger@207.14.113.17...
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
> news:uqCdneTi1ZJ3nFLfRVn-2A@sedona.net:
>
>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message
>> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now...
>>> Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the
>>> chassis with
>>> some rubber bushings?
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could
>> make a big difference.
>>
>
>
> It sounds plausible, but too simple. With all the development Honda and
> other makers do every minute of every working day, why wouldn't they have
> already done this themselves? It would just be a rubber grommet.
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Just a guess, but the relays probably last long enough to suit them. I have
to remind myself the MY 2005 is almost over, and when we see a '95 with a
bad main relay it is a ten year old car. Jim has a point - resolder and
remount it, and probably get another decade or more life out of it. I
remember when it was cockeyed optimism to expect 15 years out of an engine,
so maybe I shouldn't complain.

Mike

 

"TeGGeR®" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message
news:Xns968DCCE6B9162tegger@207.14.113.17...
> "Michael Pardee" <michaeltnull@cybertrails.com> wrote in
> news:uqCdneTi1ZJ3nFLfRVn-2A@sedona.net:
>
>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message
>> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now...
>>> Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the
>>> chassis with
>>> some rubber bushings?
>>>
>>> Eric
>>
>> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could
>> make a big difference.
>>
>
>
> It sounds plausible, but too simple. With all the development Honda and
> other makers do every minute of every working day, why wouldn't they have
> already done this themselves? It would just be a rubber grommet.
>
>
> --
> TeGGeR®
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

Just a guess, but the relays probably last long enough to suit them. I have
to remind myself the MY 2005 is almost over, and when we see a '95 with a
bad main relay it is a ten year old car. Jim has a point - resolder and
remount it, and probably get another decade or more life out of it. I
remember when it was cockeyed optimism to expect 15 years out of an engine,
so maybe I shouldn't complain.

Mike

 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message
>> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now...
>>
>>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they
>>>>mount
>>>>heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using the solder
>>>>for
>>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car chassis so
>>>>the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A lot of mfrs do
>>>>it
>>>>because the problem rarely shows up within the warranty period.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>
>>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the chassis
>>>with
>>>some rubber bushings?
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>>
>> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could make
>> a big difference.
>>
>> Mike
> i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's more
> shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely thermal
> fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down. those things run much
> too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to crud accumulation,
> so you can't win. best design would be something with mechanical [screw]
> mountings for the relay chassis, not the soldered ones like present, a
> thermal conduction path from the relay chassis to the external mounting,
> and restrict solder only to the electricals. but that would likely cost
> double the current arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old,
> and a new relay will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to
> buy a new one & forget about it.
>
Good points, all of them. I hadn't considered the heat aspect.

Mike

 

"jim beam" <nospam@example.net> wrote in message
news:mbCdneydi_AghlLfRVn-vQ@speakeasy.net...
> Michael Pardee wrote:
>> "Eric" <say.no@spam.now> wrote in message
>> news:42CEDA5D.257243EB@spam.now...
>>
>>>Michael Pardee wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'd bet the vulnerability is still there. The basic problem is they
>>>>mount
>>>>heavy items (the relays themselves) on circuit boards using the solder
>>>>for
>>>>the mechanical support, then mount the whole thing to the car chassis so
>>>>the road and engine vibration can fatigue the solder. A lot of mfrs do
>>>>it
>>>>because the problem rarely shows up within the warranty period.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>
>>>Hmmm, wouldn't a potential solution be to soft mount it to the chassis
>>>with
>>>some rubber bushings?
>>>
>>>Eric
>>
>>
>> I'd sure think so. Even if it only softened the vibrations it could make
>> a big difference.
>>
>> Mike
> i don't think it's the g's from the road that are the deal - there's more
> shock from the contacts opening & closing. much more likely thermal
> fatigue from the relay heating up & cooling down. those things run much
> too hot imo. but ventilating them leaves them open to crud accumulation,
> so you can't win. best design would be something with mechanical [screw]
> mountings for the relay chassis, not the soldered ones like present, a
> thermal conduction path from the relay chassis to the external mounting,
> and restrict solder only to the electricals. but that would likely cost
> double the current arrangement, so given that this car is 15 years old,
> and a new relay will likely last another 15, it's not /that/ big a deal to
> buy a new one & forget about it.
>
Good points, all of them. I hadn't considered the heat aspect.

Mike