Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

"dbu" <nospam@nospam.moc> wrote in message
news:nospam-DD5899.16360419072008@comcast.dca.giganews.com...
> In article <xn0fsvcf8e8z2mw000@news.mixmin.net>,
> "badgolferman" <REMOVETHISbadgolferman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> dbu, 7/19/2008,4:41:44 PM, wrote:
>>
>> > I'd love to see the look on this cussing fools face when he
>> > finds out I tell truth.
>>
>> dbu, I think this all stems from the use of the word "super" to
>> describe midgrade gasoline. Most of us use "super" when referring to
>> the highest grade however it is probably more correct to call it
>> "premium" and I am guessing that is what you know 91-93 octane gasoline
>> as. I can believe you have a station that would charge a penney more
>> for 89 octane gas, especially if it is an independent station where it
>> receives its supply from a local refiner. You don't have to defend
>> yourself or prove anything since it is obvious they won't believe you
>> even if you did post a picture. They will accuse you of doctoring it
>> or having the owner change the prices just for your picture.
>
> Sure, I agree. Where the problem lies is their inability to read and
> decipher what I said. That is not my problem. I posted the octane
> numbers, but it seemed to be ignored. The station called it "super" and
> "regular", 89 and 87 respectively, one penny difference. It is an
> independent supplier. I don't know of any station in this area that
> sells 93 octane gas, one I know of that sells 91 octane, but that is
> non-oxygenated fuel for use in lawnmowers and the like and illegal to
> use in cars and trucks unless they are licensed antique, per state law.
>
> Thanks for the help, but I don't think it will convince these narrow
> minded knot heads.
> --

I read through this thread with amusement and I believe dbu. There is a
Sunoco gas station here in Baltimore County, MD. It was on York Road, by
Seminary Avenue in an area called Lutherville. They sell Premium at the
same cost as mid grade. It used to be a Mobile station before they changed
maybe over a year ago, but apparently same owner since they were doing this
when they were a Mobile station. They have mechanics bays and a very small
convenience section.

Why do they do this? Don't know - maybe to get people to buy gas, get to
know them and maybe have their car worked on by the mechanic? I don't ask,
but used to buy gas there in my previous car when I used premium. Also had
the car worked on by the mechanic before. He's a decent mechanic. If
you're ever in the area and want to see for yourself, swing by. They've
been doing this at least for the past 5 years. And no, I'm not going to
take a picture - not worth the time, but it is a brand name gas.

-Dave

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

"Dave L" ...
>
> I read through this thread with amusement and I believe dbu. There is a
> Sunoco gas station here in Baltimore County, MD. It was on York Road, by
> Seminary Avenue in an area called Lutherville. They sell Premium at the
> same cost as mid grade. It used to be a Mobile station before they
> changed maybe over a year ago, but apparently same owner since they were
> doing this when they were a Mobile station. They have mechanics bays and
> a very small convenience section.
>
> Why do they do this? Don't know - maybe to get people to buy gas, get to
> know them and maybe have their car worked on by the mechanic? I don't
> ask, but used to buy gas there in my previous car when I used premium.
> Also had the car worked on by the mechanic before. He's a decent
> mechanic. If you're ever in the area and want to see for yourself, swing
> by. They've been doing this at least for the past 5 years. And no, I'm
> not going to take a picture - not worth the time, but it is a brand name
> gas.
>

Back when I was in HS and College I worked at a Shell station in Middletown
NJ. This was at the time gas was about 50 cents per gallon. Whenever we
ran out of regular [and it happened many times] we were instructed to lower
the price of premium down to the regular price so the customers wer not
pissed off that we had none of their gas. They were always really happy
about this. This was when the price was regular, 2 cent more for midgrade
and 4 cent more for premium.
Tomes

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:30:41 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:44:20 -0700, jim beam
>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Art wrote:
>>>> My Odyssey has a onboard computer that I verify every fill up. It gets 17
>>>> around city. Never better around town. End I have the more efficient
>>>> engine that turns off 3 cylinders during coasting. I believe they may have
>>>> a new version that can turn off 4 cyclinders in the Accord. Not sure if it
>>>> is in the Odyssey though.
>>> /all/ modern fuel injected cars turn of /all/ cylinders when coasting.
>>>
>>> it's /some/ cars that turn off cylinders when /cruising/.
>>>
>>>
>> snip
>>
>> Mind explaining what you mean? By coasting do you mean rolling with
>> the gear shift in neutral?
>
>no, coasting is when the momentum of the vehicle pushes against the
>engine and turns it even when you have your foot off the gas, like
>descending a hill or slowing to a stop.
>
>
>> If that is what you mean is engine cut out
>> in this condition a requirement of North American autos as it
>> certainly isn't so for European vehicles.
>
>no, it's for all electronic fuel injection vehicles, globally. the
>forward energy of the vehicle is rotating the engine - there's no point
>injecting gas when the motor's just pumping air coasting.
>
>
>> In Europe it is becoming
>> increasingly common for modern vehicles to stop the engine when at
>> rest and for the engine to restart when the gas pedal (accelerator) is
>> depressed.
>
>that's not coasting.
I'm well aware of that.

Re coasting: the definition is simply forward motion due to force of
gravity, I think you have added the bit concerning engagement of
engine with drive train.

With respect to the engine cutting out (either by gas cutoff or
ignition cutoff or both) when the torque is reversed (vehicle driving
engine), this is something new to me and I am pretty sure that doesn't
occur in my Civic (2005) or in any other fuel injected vehicle I have
driven worldwide. I take your point that there is no gain by
injecting fuel under these circumstances. How does the engine detect
'torque reversal' to cutoff fuel and ignition? Does this occur each
time you brake as braking is a 'coasting' event the way you define it.

Incidentally what is 'electronic fuel injection' the converse of which
is, I assume, 'mechanical fuel injection'. If you mean a carburetor
in my 'parlance' a carburetor is an induction system not an injection
system :-) re Collins English Dictionary 'induction'.

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:30:41 -0700, jim beam
> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:44:20 -0700, jim beam
>>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Art wrote:
>>>>> My Odyssey has a onboard computer that I verify every fill up. It gets 17
>>>>> around city. Never better around town. End I have the more efficient
>>>>> engine that turns off 3 cylinders during coasting. I believe they may have
>>>>> a new version that can turn off 4 cyclinders in the Accord. Not sure if it
>>>>> is in the Odyssey though.
>>>> /all/ modern fuel injected cars turn of /all/ cylinders when coasting.
>>>>
>>>> it's /some/ cars that turn off cylinders when /cruising/.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> snip
>>>
>>> Mind explaining what you mean? By coasting do you mean rolling with
>>> the gear shift in neutral?
>> no, coasting is when the momentum of the vehicle pushes against the
>> engine and turns it even when you have your foot off the gas, like
>> descending a hill or slowing to a stop.
>>
>>
>>> If that is what you mean is engine cut out
>>> in this condition a requirement of North American autos as it
>>> certainly isn't so for European vehicles.
>> no, it's for all electronic fuel injection vehicles, globally. the
>> forward energy of the vehicle is rotating the engine - there's no point
>> injecting gas when the motor's just pumping air coasting.
>>
>>
>>> In Europe it is becoming
>>> increasingly common for modern vehicles to stop the engine when at
>>> rest and for the engine to restart when the gas pedal (accelerator) is
>>> depressed.
>> that's not coasting.
> I'm well aware of that.
>
> Re coasting: the definition is simply forward motion due to force of
> gravity,

why gravity? coasting is coasting - taking your foot off the gas while
you're moving.


> I think you have added the bit concerning engagement of
> engine with drive train.

i did.


>
> With respect to the engine cutting out (either by gas cutoff or
> ignition cutoff or both)

you can cut off ignition, but i'm not aware of anyone who does - what's
important is shutting off gas.


> when the torque is reversed (vehicle driving
> engine), this is something new to me and I am pretty sure that doesn't
> occur in my Civic (2005) or in any other fuel injected vehicle I have
> driven worldwide.

it absolutely does. the point is, when you're coasting, you're
primarily pumping air. not point injecting gas in that situation.


> I take your point that there is no gain by
> injecting fuel under these circumstances. How does the engine detect
> 'torque reversal' to cutoff fuel and ignition?

rpm and throttle position.


> Does this occur each
> time you brake as braking is a 'coasting' event the way you define it.

yes.


>
> Incidentally what is 'electronic fuel injection' the converse of which
> is, I assume, 'mechanical fuel injection'.

modern computer controlled electronically activated fuel injection.


> If you mean a carburetor
> in my 'parlance' a carburetor is an induction system not an injection
> system :-) re Collins English Dictionary 'induction'.

if i'd meant carburetor, i'd have said carburetor.

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

"Tomes" <ask.me@here.net> wrote in message
news:g63fj7$im5$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> "Dave L" ...
>>
>> I read through this thread with amusement and I believe dbu. There is a
>> Sunoco gas station here in Baltimore County, MD. It was on York Road, by
>> Seminary Avenue in an area called Lutherville. They sell Premium at the
>> same cost as mid grade. It used to be a Mobile station before they
>> changed maybe over a year ago, but apparently same owner since they were
>> doing this when they were a Mobile station. They have mechanics bays and
>> a very small convenience section.
>>
>> Why do they do this? Don't know - maybe to get people to buy gas, get to
>> know them and maybe have their car worked on by the mechanic? I don't
>> ask, but used to buy gas there in my previous car when I used premium.
>> Also had the car worked on by the mechanic before. He's a decent
>> mechanic. If you're ever in the area and want to see for yourself, swing
>> by. They've been doing this at least for the past 5 years. And no, I'm
>> not going to take a picture - not worth the time, but it is a brand name
>> gas.
>>
>
> Back when I was in HS and College I worked at a Shell station in
> Middletown NJ. This was at the time gas was about 50 cents per gallon.
> Whenever we ran out of regular [and it happened many times] we were
> instructed to lower the price of premium down to the regular price so the
> customers wer not pissed off that we had none of their gas. They were
> always really happy about this. This was when the price was regular, 2
> cent more for midgrade and 4 cent more for premium.
> Tomes

Yup, I remember when the between regular and premium was much smaller
than now. When did gas stations start coming out with mid-grade? I thought
it was more recent than the gas being 50 cents.

-Dave

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

"Dave L" ...
> "Tomes" ...
>> "Dave L" ...
>>>
>>> I read through this thread with amusement and I believe dbu. There is a
>>> Sunoco gas station here in Baltimore County, MD. It was on York Road,
>>> by Seminary Avenue in an area called Lutherville. They sell Premium at
>>> the same cost as mid grade. It used to be a Mobile station before they
>>> changed maybe over a year ago, but apparently same owner since they were
>>> doing this when they were a Mobile station. They have mechanics bays
>>> and a very small convenience section.
>>>
>>> Why do they do this? Don't know - maybe to get people to buy gas, get
>>> to know them and maybe have their car worked on by the mechanic? I
>>> don't ask, but used to buy gas there in my previous car when I used
>>> premium. Also had the car worked on by the mechanic before. He's a
>>> decent mechanic. If you're ever in the area and want to see for
>>> yourself, swing by. They've been doing this at least for the past 5
>>> years. And no, I'm not going to take a picture - not worth the time,
>>> but it is a brand name gas.
>>>
>>
>> Back when I was in HS and College I worked at a Shell station in
>> Middletown NJ. This was at the time gas was about 50 cents per gallon.
>> Whenever we ran out of regular [and it happened many times] we were
>> instructed to lower the price of premium down to the regular price so the
>> customers wer not pissed off that we had none of their gas. They were
>> always really happy about this. This was when the price was regular, 2
>> cent more for midgrade and 4 cent more for premium.
>> Tomes
>
> Yup, I remember when the between regular and premium was much
> smaller than now. When did gas stations start coming out with mid-grade?
> I thought it was more recent than the gas being 50 cents.
>
Now I am trying to remember better (ouch). I think that the mid-grade was
the unleaded right when unleaded came out, and the regular and premium were
leaded. This was 1975-8ish.
Tomes

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

On Jul 21, 4:45 pm, "Paul" <pkmuel...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Actually, I was in Colorado a couple of weeks ago, and all the gas there
> seemed to be a couple of points lower in octane than what I'm used to in
> Texas. I don't know why -- something to do with the altitude, maybe? Alas, I
> have no photos to support my assertion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating explains that lower octane
works OK in high altitude.

--
Ron

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:30:52 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

>Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:30:41 -0700, jim beam
>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:44:20 -0700, jim beam
>>>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Art wrote:
>>>>>> My Odyssey has a onboard computer that I verify every fill up. It gets 17
>>>>>> around city. Never better around town. End I have the more efficient
>>>>>> engine that turns off 3 cylinders during coasting. I believe they may have
>>>>>> a new version that can turn off 4 cyclinders in the Accord. Not sure if it
>>>>>> is in the Odyssey though.
>>>>> /all/ modern fuel injected cars turn of /all/ cylinders when coasting.
>>>>>
>>>>> it's /some/ cars that turn off cylinders when /cruising/.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> snip
>>>>
>>>> Mind explaining what you mean? By coasting do you mean rolling with
>>>> the gear shift in neutral?
>>> no, coasting is when the momentum of the vehicle pushes against the
>>> engine and turns it even when you have your foot off the gas, like
>>> descending a hill or slowing to a stop.
>>>
>>>
>>>> If that is what you mean is engine cut out
>>>> in this condition a requirement of North American autos as it
>>>> certainly isn't so for European vehicles.
>>> no, it's for all electronic fuel injection vehicles, globally. the
>>> forward energy of the vehicle is rotating the engine - there's no point
>>> injecting gas when the motor's just pumping air coasting.
>>>
>>>
>>>> In Europe it is becoming
>>>> increasingly common for modern vehicles to stop the engine when at
>>>> rest and for the engine to restart when the gas pedal (accelerator) is
>>>> depressed.
>>> that's not coasting.
>> I'm well aware of that.
>>
>> Re coasting: the definition is simply forward motion due to force of
>> gravity,
>
>why gravity? coasting is coasting - taking your foot off the gas while
>you're moving.
>
>
>> I think you have added the bit concerning engagement of
>> engine with drive train.
>
>i did.
>
>
>>
>> With respect to the engine cutting out (either by gas cutoff or
>> ignition cutoff or both)
>
>you can cut off ignition, but i'm not aware of anyone who does - what's
>important is shutting off gas.
>
>
>> when the torque is reversed (vehicle driving
>> engine), this is something new to me and I am pretty sure that doesn't
>> occur in my Civic (2005) or in any other fuel injected vehicle I have
>> driven worldwide.
>
>it absolutely does. the point is, when you're coasting, you're
>primarily pumping air. not point injecting gas in that situation.
>
>
>> I take your point that there is no gain by
>> injecting fuel under these circumstances. How does the engine detect
>> 'torque reversal' to cutoff fuel and ignition?
>
>rpm and throttle position.
>
>
>> Does this occur each
>> time you brake as braking is a 'coasting' event the way you define it.
>
>yes.
>
>
>>
>> Incidentally what is 'electronic fuel injection' the converse of which
>> is, I assume, 'mechanical fuel injection'.
>
>modern computer controlled electronically activated fuel injection.
>
>
>> If you mean a carburetor
>> in my 'parlance' a carburetor is an induction system not an injection
>> system :-) re Collins English Dictionary 'induction'.
>
>if i'd meant carburetor, i'd have said carburetor.
OK, then restating my previous question, what is the converse to
electronic fuel injection in a gasoline engine. Mechanical fuel
injection is the normal system for diesel engines but not, AFAIK, used
for gas engines.

As I understand it you are saying that during the period when
'coasting' to stop no fuel is being admitted to the engine. If this
correct at some point fuel must be readmitted to allow the engine to
idle when the vehicle is at stop. The question is how does the
'system' determine when fuel is to be readmitted during the coasting
event to prevent the engine from 'stopping' when at rest?

Incidentally rpm and throttle position does not indicate torque
reversal (coasting) as you have implied.

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

Edward W. Thompson wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:30:52 -0700, jim beam
> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>
>> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 22:30:41 -0700, jim beam
>>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Edward W. Thompson wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 17:44:20 -0700, jim beam
>>>>> <spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Art wrote:
>>>>>>> My Odyssey has a onboard computer that I verify every fill up. It gets 17
>>>>>>> around city. Never better around town. End I have the more efficient
>>>>>>> engine that turns off 3 cylinders during coasting. I believe they may have
>>>>>>> a new version that can turn off 4 cyclinders in the Accord. Not sure if it
>>>>>>> is in the Odyssey though.
>>>>>> /all/ modern fuel injected cars turn of /all/ cylinders when coasting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> it's /some/ cars that turn off cylinders when /cruising/.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> snip
>>>>>
>>>>> Mind explaining what you mean? By coasting do you mean rolling with
>>>>> the gear shift in neutral?
>>>> no, coasting is when the momentum of the vehicle pushes against the
>>>> engine and turns it even when you have your foot off the gas, like
>>>> descending a hill or slowing to a stop.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> If that is what you mean is engine cut out
>>>>> in this condition a requirement of North American autos as it
>>>>> certainly isn't so for European vehicles.
>>>> no, it's for all electronic fuel injection vehicles, globally. the
>>>> forward energy of the vehicle is rotating the engine - there's no point
>>>> injecting gas when the motor's just pumping air coasting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In Europe it is becoming
>>>>> increasingly common for modern vehicles to stop the engine when at
>>>>> rest and for the engine to restart when the gas pedal (accelerator) is
>>>>> depressed.
>>>> that's not coasting.
>>> I'm well aware of that.
>>>
>>> Re coasting: the definition is simply forward motion due to force of
>>> gravity,
>> why gravity? coasting is coasting - taking your foot off the gas while
>> you're moving.
>>
>>
>>> I think you have added the bit concerning engagement of
>>> engine with drive train.
>> i did.
>>
>>
>>> With respect to the engine cutting out (either by gas cutoff or
>>> ignition cutoff or both)
>> you can cut off ignition, but i'm not aware of anyone who does - what's
>> important is shutting off gas.
>>
>>
>>> when the torque is reversed (vehicle driving
>>> engine), this is something new to me and I am pretty sure that doesn't
>>> occur in my Civic (2005) or in any other fuel injected vehicle I have
>>> driven worldwide.
>> it absolutely does. the point is, when you're coasting, you're
>> primarily pumping air. not point injecting gas in that situation.
>>
>>
>>> I take your point that there is no gain by
>>> injecting fuel under these circumstances. How does the engine detect
>>> 'torque reversal' to cutoff fuel and ignition?
>> rpm and throttle position.
>>
>>
>>> Does this occur each
>>> time you brake as braking is a 'coasting' event the way you define it.
>> yes.
>>
>>
>>> Incidentally what is 'electronic fuel injection' the converse of which
>>> is, I assume, 'mechanical fuel injection'.
>> modern computer controlled electronically activated fuel injection.
>>
>>
>>> If you mean a carburetor
>>> in my 'parlance' a carburetor is an induction system not an injection
>>> system :-) re Collins English Dictionary 'induction'.
>> if i'd meant carburetor, i'd have said carburetor.
> OK, then restating my previous question, what is the converse to
> electronic fuel injection in a gasoline engine. Mechanical fuel
> injection is the normal system for diesel engines but not, AFAIK, used
> for gas engines.

the old bosch systems were pretty much mechanical. remember the ones
with the braided line that ran to each cylinder?


>
> As I understand it you are saying that during the period when
> 'coasting' to stop no fuel is being admitted to the engine. If this
> correct at some point fuel must be readmitted to allow the engine to
> idle when the vehicle is at stop. The question is how does the
> 'system' determine when fuel is to be readmitted during the coasting
> event to prevent the engine from 'stopping' when at rest?

the computer monitors rpm's and starts re-injecting below a base
threshold. older systems, that's about 1500rpm. according to tegger,
more modern systems cut it to as low as 750rpm.


>
> Incidentally rpm and throttle position does not indicate torque
> reversal (coasting) as you have implied.

then you need to think this situation through one more time - there's no
situation under which you can have high rpm's and a closed throttle
unless you're coasting.

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:00:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:

>> As I understand it you are saying that during the period when
>> 'coasting' to stop no fuel is being admitted to the engine. If this
>> correct at some point fuel must be readmitted to allow the engine to
>> idle when the vehicle is at stop. The question is how does the
>> 'system' determine when fuel is to be readmitted during the coasting
>> event to prevent the engine from 'stopping' when at rest?

> the computer monitors rpm's and starts re-injecting below a base
> threshold. older systems, that's about 1500rpm. according to tegger,
> more modern systems cut it to as low as 750rpm.

Let me get this straight. I think you are claiming that the engine uses
*NO FUEL* during coasting...., right? So, let's think of an example....
If I was coming down a large mountain, on the Interstate, at 65mph, and
was to *COAST* for 20 miles (entirely realistic in some places), you are
saying that I would not use ANY FUEL? Right?

My take on that is that it's absolutely wrong. The engine is still
running, even if it's not doing any real "work". It is using fuel.


--
"Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

Dan C wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:00:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>
>>> As I understand it you are saying that during the period when
>>> 'coasting' to stop no fuel is being admitted to the engine. If this
>>> correct at some point fuel must be readmitted to allow the engine to
>>> idle when the vehicle is at stop. The question is how does the
>>> 'system' determine when fuel is to be readmitted during the coasting
>>> event to prevent the engine from 'stopping' when at rest?
>
>> the computer monitors rpm's and starts re-injecting below a base
>> threshold. older systems, that's about 1500rpm. according to tegger,
>> more modern systems cut it to as low as 750rpm.
>
> Let me get this straight. I think you are claiming that the engine uses
> *NO FUEL* during coasting...., right? So, let's think of an example....
> If I was coming down a large mountain, on the Interstate, at 65mph, and
> was to *COAST* for 20 miles (entirely realistic in some places), you are
> saying that I would not use ANY FUEL? Right?
>
> My take on that is that it's absolutely wrong. The engine is still
> running, even if it's not doing any real "work". It is using fuel.
>
>

nope. the engine is turning because it's in gear and the weight of the
vehicle is pushing it down hill. in this situation, the computer will
inject zero fuel. not one drop. [unless you put your foot on the gas
again of course.]

go to megasquirt.info, dig through until you find the source code, read
it, and there you will see an example of the shut-off, and the
parameters the computer uses to do it.

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

"Tomes" <ask.me@here.net> wrote in message
news:g665fl$s71$1@registered.motzarella.org...
> "Dave L" ...
>> "Tomes" ...
>>> "Dave L" ...
>>>>
>>>> I read through this thread with amusement and I believe dbu. There is
>>>> a Sunoco gas station here in Baltimore County, MD. It was on York
>>>> Road, by Seminary Avenue in an area called Lutherville. They sell
>>>> Premium at the same cost as mid grade. It used to be a Mobile station
>>>> before they changed maybe over a year ago, but apparently same owner
>>>> since they were doing this when they were a Mobile station. They have
>>>> mechanics bays and a very small convenience section.
>>>>
>>>> Why do they do this? Don't know - maybe to get people to buy gas, get
>>>> to know them and maybe have their car worked on by the mechanic? I
>>>> don't ask, but used to buy gas there in my previous car when I used
>>>> premium. Also had the car worked on by the mechanic before. He's a
>>>> decent mechanic. If you're ever in the area and want to see for
>>>> yourself, swing by. They've been doing this at least for the past 5
>>>> years. And no, I'm not going to take a picture - not worth the time,
>>>> but it is a brand name gas.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Back when I was in HS and College I worked at a Shell station in
>>> Middletown NJ. This was at the time gas was about 50 cents per gallon.
>>> Whenever we ran out of regular [and it happened many times] we were
>>> instructed to lower the price of premium down to the regular price so
>>> the customers wer not pissed off that we had none of their gas. They
>>> were always really happy about this. This was when the price was
>>> regular, 2 cent more for midgrade and 4 cent more for premium.
>>> Tomes
>>
>> Yup, I remember when the between regular and premium was much
>> smaller than now. When did gas stations start coming out with mid-grade?
>> I thought it was more recent than the gas being 50 cents.
>>
> Now I am trying to remember better (ouch). I think that the mid-grade was
> the unleaded right when unleaded came out, and the regular and premium
> were leaded. This was 1975-8ish.
> Tomes

Ya got me there. I can't remember what the pumps were that far back. I
wasn't even hear driving yet!

-Dave

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

On 2008-07-23, Dan C <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:00:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>
>>> As I understand it you are saying that during the period when
>>> 'coasting' to stop no fuel is being admitted to the engine. If this
>>> correct at some point fuel must be readmitted to allow the engine to
>>> idle when the vehicle is at stop. The question is how does the
>>> 'system' determine when fuel is to be readmitted during the coasting
>>> event to prevent the engine from 'stopping' when at rest?
>
>> the computer monitors rpm's and starts re-injecting below a base
>> threshold. older systems, that's about 1500rpm. according to tegger,
>> more modern systems cut it to as low as 750rpm.
>
> Let me get this straight. I think you are claiming that the engine uses
> *NO FUEL* during coasting...., right? So, let's think of an example....
> If I was coming down a large mountain, on the Interstate, at 65mph, and
> was to *COAST* for 20 miles (entirely realistic in some places), you are
> saying that I would not use ANY FUEL? Right?
>
> My take on that is that it's absolutely wrong. The engine is still
> running, even if it's not doing any real "work". It is using fuel.

Your take on that is completely wrong. In this case, the engine is
being driven by the transmission. No combustion is taking place. The
engine runs on the energy of the downhill glide until your RPM's get
low enough that the fuel needs to be injected again to keep the engine
running.


--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:43:20 -0500, Joe wrote:

> On 2008-07-23, Dan C <youmustbejoking@lan.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:00:57 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>>
>>>> As I understand it you are saying that during the period when
>>>> 'coasting' to stop no fuel is being admitted to the engine. If this
>>>> correct at some point fuel must be readmitted to allow the engine to
>>>> idle when the vehicle is at stop. The question is how does the
>>>> 'system' determine when fuel is to be readmitted during the coasting
>>>> event to prevent the engine from 'stopping' when at rest?
>>
>>> the computer monitors rpm's and starts re-injecting below a base
>>> threshold. older systems, that's about 1500rpm. according to tegger,
>>> more modern systems cut it to as low as 750rpm.
>>
>> Let me get this straight. I think you are claiming that the engine uses
>> *NO FUEL* during coasting...., right? So, let's think of an example....
>> If I was coming down a large mountain, on the Interstate, at 65mph, and
>> was to *COAST* for 20 miles (entirely realistic in some places), you are
>> saying that I would not use ANY FUEL? Right?
>>
>> My take on that is that it's absolutely wrong. The engine is still
>> running, even if it's not doing any real "work". It is using fuel.
>
> Your take on that is completely wrong. In this case, the engine is
> being driven by the transmission. No combustion is taking place. The
> engine runs on the energy of the downhill glide until your RPM's get
> low enough that the fuel needs to be injected again to keep the engine
> running.

OK. Makes sense I guess.


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Re: 2008 minivans: Honda Odyssey vs Toyota Sienna
 

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 06:00:57 -0700, jim beam
<spamvortex@bad.example.net> wrote:

snip
>
>
>>
>> Incidentally rpm and throttle position does not indicate torque
>> reversal (coasting) as you have implied.
>
>then you need to think this situation through one more time - there's no
>situation under which you can have high rpm's and a closed throttle
>unless you're coasting.


I agree I am nit picking now but a closed throttle and high rpm (plus
750-1500 rpm I think you said) is not quite the same as torque
reversal although it is certainly indicative.

This, for me, has been a very intertesting exchange and I thank you
for you explanations and patience.