1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
09-06-2004 | 10:12 AM
#31
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
qQ@comcast.com:
>
>
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> "Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>
>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>
>>
>> That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>> If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>
>> And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>
>
> fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
When they are not selected properly for the application.
> when they're starting to go,
> they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
> the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
> used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per
second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback
arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact
burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned
on/off,once per trip.
> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>
> in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
> is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
> already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
> my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.
>
That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
qQ@comcast.com:
>
>
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> "Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>
>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>
>>
>> That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>> If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>
>> And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>
>
> fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
When they are not selected properly for the application.
> when they're starting to go,
> they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
> the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
> used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per
second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback
arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact
burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned
on/off,once per trip.
> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>
> in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
> is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
> already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
> my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.
>
That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
09-06-2004 | 11:39 AM
#32
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
> qQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>
>>>
>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>
>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>
>>
>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>
>
> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>
>
>>when they're starting to go,
>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
>>the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
>>used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
>
>
> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per
> second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback
> arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact
> burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned
> on/off,once per trip.
the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built in.
so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help. you
can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh, a 10
year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>
>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>
>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
>>is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
>>already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
>>my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.
>>
>
>
> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
> solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
> day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>
reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human soldered.
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
> qQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>
>>>
>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>
>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>
>>
>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>
>
> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>
>
>>when they're starting to go,
>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
>>the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
>>used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
>
>
> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per
> second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback
> arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact
> burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned
> on/off,once per trip.
the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built in.
so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help. you
can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh, a 10
year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>
>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>
>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
>>is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
>>already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
>>my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.
>>
>
>
> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
> solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
> day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>
reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human soldered.
09-06-2004 | 11:39 AM
#33
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
> qQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>
>>>
>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>
>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>
>>
>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>
>
> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>
>
>>when they're starting to go,
>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
>>the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
>>used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
>
>
> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per
> second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback
> arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact
> burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned
> on/off,once per trip.
the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built in.
so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help. you
can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh, a 10
year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>
>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>
>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
>>is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
>>already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
>>my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.
>>
>
>
> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
> solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
> day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>
reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human soldered.
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
> qQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.ne t:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>
>>>
>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>
>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>
>>
>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>
>
> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>
>
>>when they're starting to go,
>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
>>the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
>>used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
>
>
> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per
> second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback
> arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact
> burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned
> on/off,once per trip.
the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built in.
so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help. you
can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh, a 10
year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>
>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>
>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
>>is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
>>already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
>>my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.
>>
>
>
> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
> solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
> day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>
reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human soldered.
09-06-2004 | 03:13 PM
#34
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
<large snip>
> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
> solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
> day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
The problem with the failing main relays is not related to poor
soldering from the factory. The problem is that solder has very poor
mechanical properties. If you subject it to stress, solder will fatigue
quickly. What holds the relay in place mechanically in the main relay
module is the solder joints only. The relays are heavy, and after a
decade of shaking, bouncing and vibrating, these solder joints will
fatigue and fail.
This is also why, contrary to popular belief, it is a bad idea to tin
the leads before puting on crimp connectors, screw terminals etc.
Honda is not the only make having this problem. Check out
http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Mainte...trical/LKM.htm for a very
similar problem with BMW's "Lights Control Module".
09-06-2004 | 03:13 PM
#35
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
<large snip>
> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
> solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
> day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
The problem with the failing main relays is not related to poor
soldering from the factory. The problem is that solder has very poor
mechanical properties. If you subject it to stress, solder will fatigue
quickly. What holds the relay in place mechanically in the main relay
module is the solder joints only. The relays are heavy, and after a
decade of shaking, bouncing and vibrating, these solder joints will
fatigue and fail.
This is also why, contrary to popular belief, it is a bad idea to tin
the leads before puting on crimp connectors, screw terminals etc.
Honda is not the only make having this problem. Check out
http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Mainte...trical/LKM.htm for a very
similar problem with BMW's "Lights Control Module".
09-06-2004 | 07:34 PM
#36
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
> Howard,
>
> I can solder a Honda relay ten times better (read thicker) than the
> factory. Why would I buy another POOR one? So I (or the next owner) can
> have more trouble down the (dark / rainy / lonely) road????
>
> Beam me up, Scotty.
Well, I certainly hope I'm not in your car when your relay fails in the
middle of the night on a dark road. Unless you carry around a solder iron
with you. And I hope you got a few more spares, like some pistons, a starter
motor, brake pads, maybe CV joint. Or maybe you can fix all of them with a
solder iron? I'm not gonna buy stock in Napa till you throw away that iron!
Good luck.
Howard
>
> I can solder a Honda relay ten times better (read thicker) than the
> factory. Why would I buy another POOR one? So I (or the next owner) can
> have more trouble down the (dark / rainy / lonely) road????
>
> Beam me up, Scotty.
Well, I certainly hope I'm not in your car when your relay fails in the
middle of the night on a dark road. Unless you carry around a solder iron
with you. And I hope you got a few more spares, like some pistons, a starter
motor, brake pads, maybe CV joint. Or maybe you can fix all of them with a
solder iron? I'm not gonna buy stock in Napa till you throw away that iron!
Good luck.
Howard
09-06-2004 | 07:34 PM
#37
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
> Howard,
>
> I can solder a Honda relay ten times better (read thicker) than the
> factory. Why would I buy another POOR one? So I (or the next owner) can
> have more trouble down the (dark / rainy / lonely) road????
>
> Beam me up, Scotty.
Well, I certainly hope I'm not in your car when your relay fails in the
middle of the night on a dark road. Unless you carry around a solder iron
with you. And I hope you got a few more spares, like some pistons, a starter
motor, brake pads, maybe CV joint. Or maybe you can fix all of them with a
solder iron? I'm not gonna buy stock in Napa till you throw away that iron!
Good luck.
Howard
>
> I can solder a Honda relay ten times better (read thicker) than the
> factory. Why would I buy another POOR one? So I (or the next owner) can
> have more trouble down the (dark / rainy / lonely) road????
>
> Beam me up, Scotty.
Well, I certainly hope I'm not in your car when your relay fails in the
middle of the night on a dark road. Unless you carry around a solder iron
with you. And I hope you got a few more spares, like some pistons, a starter
motor, brake pads, maybe CV joint. Or maybe you can fix all of them with a
solder iron? I'm not gonna buy stock in Napa till you throw away that iron!
Good luck.
Howard
09-06-2004 | 09:21 PM
#38
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>> qQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.n et:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>
>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>
>>>
>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>
>>
>> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>
>>
>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>very long?
>>
>>
>> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>> per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>> flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>> contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>> ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>
> the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
> parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
> allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
> in.
> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
> and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
> copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
> contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
> responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
> you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
> a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>>
>>
>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>
>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>to be sure.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>> get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>> have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>
>
> reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
> soldered.
>
>
I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
from back EMF.
Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>> qQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.n et:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>
>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>
>>>
>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>
>>
>> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>
>>
>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>very long?
>>
>>
>> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>> per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>> flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>> contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>> ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>
> the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
> parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
> allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
> in.
> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
> and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
> copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
> contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
> responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
> you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
> a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>>
>>
>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>
>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>to be sure.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>> get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>> have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>
>
> reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
> soldered.
>
>
I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
from back EMF.
Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
09-06-2004 | 09:21 PM
#39
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>> qQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.n et:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>
>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>
>>>
>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>
>>
>> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>
>>
>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>very long?
>>
>>
>> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>> per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>> flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>> contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>> ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>
> the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
> parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
> allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
> in.
> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
> and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
> copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
> contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
> responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
> you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
> a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>>
>>
>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>
>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>to be sure.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>> get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>> have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>
>
> reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
> soldered.
>
>
I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
from back EMF.
Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>> qQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.n et:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>
>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>
>>>
>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>
>>
>> When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>
>>
>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>very long?
>>
>>
>> Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>> Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>> per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>> flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>> contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>> ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>
> the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
> parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
> allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
> in.
> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
> and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
> copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
> contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
> responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
> you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
> a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>
>>
>>
>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>
>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>to be sure.
>>>
>>
>>
>> That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>> These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>> get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>> have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>
>
> reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
> soldered.
>
>
I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
from back EMF.
Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
09-06-2004 | 09:40 PM
#40
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth. net:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>
>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>
>>>
>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>very long?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>>>per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>>>flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>>>contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>>>ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>
>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
>>allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
>>in.
>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>
>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>>to be sure.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>>>get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>>>have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>
>>
>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>soldered.
>>
>>
>
>
> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
> from back EMF.
no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
> to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
> solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
> contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
> contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys that
have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit area
increases [same current divided by less area], operating temperature
increases.
tin/lead solders don't "age", but as stated by randolph, solder has poor
mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can easily
fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions can last
virtually forever.
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth. net:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>
>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>
>>>
>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>very long?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>>>per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>>>flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>>>contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>>>ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>
>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
>>allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
>>in.
>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>
>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>>to be sure.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>>>get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>>>have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>
>>
>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>soldered.
>>
>>
>
>
> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
> from back EMF.
no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
> to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
> solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
> contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
> contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys that
have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit area
increases [same current divided by less area], operating temperature
increases.
tin/lead solders don't "age", but as stated by randolph, solder has poor
mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can easily
fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions can last
virtually forever.
09-06-2004 | 09:40 PM
#41
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth. net:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>
>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>
>>>
>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>very long?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>>>per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>>>flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>>>contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>>>ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>
>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
>>allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
>>in.
>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>
>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>>to be sure.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>>>get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>>>have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>
>>
>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>soldered.
>>
>>
>
>
> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
> from back EMF.
no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
> to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
> solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
> contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
> contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys that
have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit area
increases [same current divided by less area], operating temperature
increases.
tin/lead solders don't "age", but as stated by randolph, solder has poor
mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can easily
fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions can last
virtually forever.
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth. net:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>
>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>
>>>
>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>very long?
>>>
>>>
>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times
>>>per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also
>>>flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in
>>>contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the
>>>ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>
>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather than
>>allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have built
>>in.
>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still wear,
>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>
>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder
>>>>job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact
>>>>points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a
>>>>resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just
>>>>to be sure.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to
>>>get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can
>>>have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>
>>
>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>soldered.
>>
>>
>
>
> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to proect
> from back EMF.
no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that were due
> to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to aging of the
> solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to current flow thru the
> contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is not enough to heat up those
> contacts,especially with the low make/break duty cycle.
the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys that
have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit area
increases [same current divided by less area], operating temperature
increases.
tin/lead solders don't "age", but as stated by randolph, solder has poor
mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can easily
fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions can last
virtually forever.
09-07-2004 | 08:57 AM
#42
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth .net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>very long?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>
>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>built in.
>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>> wear,
>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>
>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>
>>>
>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>soldered.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>> proect from back EMF.
>
> no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
> back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
> spark on the ht side of the coil.
Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
>
>>
>> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>> were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>> aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>> current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>> not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>> make/break duty cycle.
>
> the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
> even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
> look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
> contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
> that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
> area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
> temperature increases.
Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
per second,nor is there a high current.
>
> tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
> poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
> easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
> can last virtually forever.
>
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth .net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>very long?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>
>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>built in.
>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>> wear,
>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>
>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>
>>>
>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>soldered.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>> proect from back EMF.
>
> no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
> back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
> spark on the ht side of the coil.
Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
>
>>
>> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>> were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>> aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>> current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>> not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>> make/break duty cycle.
>
> the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
> even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
> look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
> contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
> that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
> area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
> temperature increases.
Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
per second,nor is there a high current.
>
> tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
> poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
> easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
> can last virtually forever.
>
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
09-07-2004 | 08:57 AM
#43
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth .net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>very long?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>
>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>built in.
>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>> wear,
>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>
>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>
>>>
>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>soldered.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>> proect from back EMF.
>
> no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
> back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
> spark on the ht side of the coil.
Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
>
>>
>> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>> were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>> aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>> current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>> not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>> make/break duty cycle.
>
> the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
> even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
> look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
> contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
> that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
> area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
> temperature increases.
Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
per second,nor is there a high current.
>
> tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
> poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
> easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
> can last virtually forever.
>
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>> news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>
>>
>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>
>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth .net:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>very long?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>
>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>built in.
>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>> wear,
>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>
>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>
>>>
>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>soldered.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>> proect from back EMF.
>
> no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
> back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
> spark on the ht side of the coil.
Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
>
>>
>> Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>> were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>> aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>> current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>> not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>> make/break duty cycle.
>
> the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
> even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
> look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
> contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
> that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
> area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
> temperature increases.
Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
per second,nor is there a high current.
>
> tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
> poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
> easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
> can last virtually forever.
>
>
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net
09-07-2004 | 09:48 AM
#44
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>>>news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsout h.net:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>>very long?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>>
>>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>>built in.
>>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>>> wear,
>>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>>soldered.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>>>proect from back EMF.
>>
>>no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
>>back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
>>spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
>
> Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
> to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
> turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
> just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
> the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
jim, sorry if i'm coming across as unclear.
diodes on relays aren't used in normal forward conduct mode. think
about it: if they conducted the current used to energise the coil, the
coil would never activate. so they're oriented the opposite way.
where's the benefit? well, when the magnetic field energy of the
solenoid breaks down after switch-off, it changes rapidly. a rapidly
changing magnetic field induces an electric current in the coil that
just happens to be wrapped around it. depending on the number of turns
& rate of decay, that current can have many thousands of volts. diodes
break down and conduct reverse voltage at some level, and this level of
breakdown can be carefully designed. so, the diodes used to protect
relay circuits do this at some appropriate level - whatever - and so the
voltage spike never goes beyond this, hence protection.
the devices used in switch mode power supplies are a very different
creature. unlike simple full wave rectifiers that conduct the whole
waveform, switching devices need to be able to switch a forward current
in the middle of a wave. this means a very large momentary power
dissipation within the device, so to do this successfully,
[semiconductors are not great power dissipators] the switch needs to be
/fast/.
the two operations are very different and there is no simple analogy
between them.
>
>>>Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>>>were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>>>aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>>>current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>>>not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>>>make/break duty cycle.
>>
>>the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
>>even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
>>look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
>>contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
>>that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
>>area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
>>temperature increases.
>
>
> Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
> happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
> per second,nor is there a high current.
well, you're right that the switch count is not high, but take one of
these relays apart, particularly if you get a chance to put it under a
microscope, and you'll see the contact erosion. also, it's switching
the fuel pump which has a fairly large coil in it....
>
>>tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
>>poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
>>easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
>>can last virtually forever.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>>>news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsout h.net:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>>very long?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>>
>>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>>built in.
>>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>>> wear,
>>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>>soldered.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>>>proect from back EMF.
>>
>>no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
>>back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
>>spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
>
> Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
> to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
> turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
> just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
> the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
jim, sorry if i'm coming across as unclear.
diodes on relays aren't used in normal forward conduct mode. think
about it: if they conducted the current used to energise the coil, the
coil would never activate. so they're oriented the opposite way.
where's the benefit? well, when the magnetic field energy of the
solenoid breaks down after switch-off, it changes rapidly. a rapidly
changing magnetic field induces an electric current in the coil that
just happens to be wrapped around it. depending on the number of turns
& rate of decay, that current can have many thousands of volts. diodes
break down and conduct reverse voltage at some level, and this level of
breakdown can be carefully designed. so, the diodes used to protect
relay circuits do this at some appropriate level - whatever - and so the
voltage spike never goes beyond this, hence protection.
the devices used in switch mode power supplies are a very different
creature. unlike simple full wave rectifiers that conduct the whole
waveform, switching devices need to be able to switch a forward current
in the middle of a wave. this means a very large momentary power
dissipation within the device, so to do this successfully,
[semiconductors are not great power dissipators] the switch needs to be
/fast/.
the two operations are very different and there is no simple analogy
between them.
>
>>>Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>>>were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>>>aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>>>current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>>>not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>>>make/break duty cycle.
>>
>>the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
>>even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
>>look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
>>contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
>>that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
>>area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
>>temperature increases.
>
>
> Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
> happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
> per second,nor is there a high current.
well, you're right that the switch count is not high, but take one of
these relays apart, particularly if you get a chance to put it under a
microscope, and you'll see the contact erosion. also, it's switching
the fuel pump which has a fairly large coil in it....
>
>>tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
>>poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
>>easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
>>can last virtually forever.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
09-07-2004 | 09:48 AM
#45
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: 1993 Civic Hard Starting Problem
Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>>>news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsout h.net:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>>very long?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>>
>>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>>built in.
>>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>>> wear,
>>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>>soldered.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>>>proect from back EMF.
>>
>>no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
>>back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
>>spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
>
> Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
> to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
> turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
> just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
> the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
jim, sorry if i'm coming across as unclear.
diodes on relays aren't used in normal forward conduct mode. think
about it: if they conducted the current used to energise the coil, the
coil would never activate. so they're oriented the opposite way.
where's the benefit? well, when the magnetic field energy of the
solenoid breaks down after switch-off, it changes rapidly. a rapidly
changing magnetic field induces an electric current in the coil that
just happens to be wrapped around it. depending on the number of turns
& rate of decay, that current can have many thousands of volts. diodes
break down and conduct reverse voltage at some level, and this level of
breakdown can be carefully designed. so, the diodes used to protect
relay circuits do this at some appropriate level - whatever - and so the
voltage spike never goes beyond this, hence protection.
the devices used in switch mode power supplies are a very different
creature. unlike simple full wave rectifiers that conduct the whole
waveform, switching devices need to be able to switch a forward current
in the middle of a wave. this means a very large momentary power
dissipation within the device, so to do this successfully,
[semiconductors are not great power dissipators] the switch needs to be
/fast/.
the two operations are very different and there is no simple analogy
between them.
>
>>>Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>>>were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>>>aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>>>current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>>>not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>>>make/break duty cycle.
>>
>>the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
>>even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
>>look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
>>contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
>>that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
>>area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
>>temperature increases.
>
>
> Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
> happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
> per second,nor is there a high current.
well, you're right that the switch count is not high, but take one of
these relays apart, particularly if you get a chance to put it under a
microscope, and you'll see the contact erosion. also, it's switching
the fuel pump which has a fairly large coil in it....
>
>>tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
>>poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
>>easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
>>can last virtually forever.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
> jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
> news:OKmdnSCDnfAdjKDcRVn-pw@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in
>>>news:iJCdnbXfNPhZGaHcRVn-rQ@comcast.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
>>>>>qQ@comcast.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jim Yanik wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>>news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsout h.net:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>>>>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and
>>>>>>>>drive on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the
>>>>>>>>mfr's.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>>>>>>>If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>When they are not selected properly for the application.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>when they're starting to go,
>>>>>>they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem
>>>>>>in the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when
>>>>>>they used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last
>>>>>>very long?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
>>>>>Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many
>>>>>times per second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was
>>>>>also flyback arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest
>>>>>factor in contact burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks
>>>>>when the ignition is turned on/off,once per trip.
>>>>
>>>>the back emf arcing is pretty much dealt with by putting a diode in
>>>>parallel with the coil - it conducts the breakdown current rather
>>>>than allowing the points to arc - and that's what these relays have
>>>>built in.
>>>> so that reduces the rate of contact point wear, but they still
>>>> wear,
>>>>and when they wear, they run hot. that's why the relay is of massive
>>>>copper construction - to conduct some of the heat away from the
>>>>contacts. the part of the relay that's running the fuel pump is also
>>>>responsible for switching a big reactive load, which doesn't help.
>>>>you can argue that the relay is not big enough for the job, but otoh,
>>>>a 10 year relay's not bad in the grand scheme of things.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a
>>>>>>resolder job is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the
>>>>>>contact points are already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i
>>>>>>keep a resoldered spare in my glove box, but i use the new one i
>>>>>>bought just to be sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
>>>>>These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy
>>>>>to get solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans
>>>>>can have a bad day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>reject rates on machine soldered work are /way/ less than human
>>>>soldered.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I bet the early coil/breaker ignitions did NOT have any diode to
>>>proect from back EMF.
>>
>>no, but they had a condenser, which helps. you can't completely kill
>>back emf on a contact breaker circuit because that's what creates the
>>spark on the ht side of the coil.
>
>
> Well,now we have diodes that can take the back EMF,back then we didn't,had
> to use big stacks of selenium wafers for rectifiers,and they were SLOW(in
> turn-off time,critical for flyback operation).Your PC power supply works
> just fine using diode snubbers in the flyback mode supply.They even make
> the switching transistors with on-substrate diodes for this purpose.
jim, sorry if i'm coming across as unclear.
diodes on relays aren't used in normal forward conduct mode. think
about it: if they conducted the current used to energise the coil, the
coil would never activate. so they're oriented the opposite way.
where's the benefit? well, when the magnetic field energy of the
solenoid breaks down after switch-off, it changes rapidly. a rapidly
changing magnetic field induces an electric current in the coil that
just happens to be wrapped around it. depending on the number of turns
& rate of decay, that current can have many thousands of volts. diodes
break down and conduct reverse voltage at some level, and this level of
breakdown can be carefully designed. so, the diodes used to protect
relay circuits do this at some appropriate level - whatever - and so the
voltage spike never goes beyond this, hence protection.
the devices used in switch mode power supplies are a very different
creature. unlike simple full wave rectifiers that conduct the whole
waveform, switching devices need to be able to switch a forward current
in the middle of a wave. this means a very large momentary power
dissipation within the device, so to do this successfully,
[semiconductors are not great power dissipators] the switch needs to be
/fast/.
the two operations are very different and there is no simple analogy
between them.
>
>>>Also,I suspect there haven't been many -worn out- main relays that
>>>were due to contact wear,if any. Just cracked solder joints due to
>>>aging of the solder alloy itself,or thermal cycling unrelated to
>>>current flow thru the contacts.The current drawn by the main relay is
>>>not enough to heat up those contacts,especially with the low
>>>make/break duty cycle.
>>
>>the contacts don't heat much when new, but after a while in operation,
>>even with spark protection, the contact points get eroded. it may not
>>look much to the naked eye, but reality is that the actual surface
>>contact area decreases - you can see all the little hills & valleys
>>that have been eaten away under a microscope. as the current per unit
>>area increases [same current divided by less area], operating
>>temperature increases.
>
>
> Yes,and for the -main relay- we're discussing,how often does the make/break
> happen? Not anything like a automotive ignition doing it thousands of times
> per second,nor is there a high current.
well, you're right that the switch count is not high, but take one of
these relays apart, particularly if you get a chance to put it under a
microscope, and you'll see the contact erosion. also, it's switching
the fuel pump which has a fairly large coil in it....
>
>>tin/lead solders don't "age",but as stated by randolph, solder has
>>poor mechanical properties. thermal cycling & mechanical stress can
>>easily fatigue it. soldered joints not subject to these conditions
>>can last virtually forever.
>>
>>
>
>
>
>