Jim Yanik wrote:
> "Graham W" <graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote in
> news:4139fbb0$0$620$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net:
>
>> Ari Rankum wrote:
>>> My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few
>>> questions that I hope the answers to which will help me find the
>>> problem. First, a few statements of fact:
>>>
>>> *The car is a Civic DX with a manual trans.
>>> *The car usually starts right up with no issues.
>>> *When it does not immediately start, waiting a few minutes and
>>> trying again is usually all that's required.
>>> *The problem "feels" like a fuel delivery problem. It cranks nice
>>> and fast. When it does finally start, it sometimes catches
>>> intermitently as if it weren't getting enough fuel.
>
> .
>>
>> I was disappointed in reading other respondants suggestions about the
>> Main Relay that none of them offered you an easy way of seeing or
>> rather hearing if the Main Relay dry joint is a likely problem.
>
> The main relay is such a common problem,why not resolder it and be
> certain it's eliminated as a source of trouble? It doen't cost
> anything except a little time.

Err.. "..If it ain't broke, don't fix it.." comes to mind which is pretty
close to "..If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!..".

8¬)

--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "Graham W" <graham@his.com.puter.INVALID> wrote in
> news:4139fbb0$0$620$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader01.plus.net:
>
>> Ari Rankum wrote:
>>> My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few
>>> questions that I hope the answers to which will help me find the
>>> problem. First, a few statements of fact:
>>>
>>> *The car is a Civic DX with a manual trans.
>>> *The car usually starts right up with no issues.
>>> *When it does not immediately start, waiting a few minutes and
>>> trying again is usually all that's required.
>>> *The problem "feels" like a fuel delivery problem. It cranks nice
>>> and fast. When it does finally start, it sometimes catches
>>> intermitently as if it weren't getting enough fuel.
>
> .
>>
>> I was disappointed in reading other respondants suggestions about the
>> Main Relay that none of them offered you an easy way of seeing or
>> rather hearing if the Main Relay dry joint is a likely problem.
>
> The main relay is such a common problem,why not resolder it and be
> certain it's eliminated as a source of trouble? It doen't cost
> anything except a little time.

Err.. "..If it ain't broke, don't fix it.." comes to mind which is pretty
close to "..If it ain't broke, fix it till it is!..".

8¬)

--
Graham W http://www.gcw.org.uk/ PGM-FI page updated, Graphics Tutorial
WIMBORNE http://www.wessex-astro-society.freeserve.co.uk/ Wessex
Dorset UK Astro Society's Web pages, Info, Meeting Dates, Sites & Maps
Change 'news' to 'sewn' in my Reply address to avoid my spam filter.

 

"motsco_ _" <"motsco_ _"@interbaun.com> wrote in message news:<4139CE40.3070809@interbaun.com>...
> Ari Rankum wrote:
> > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. <SNIP>
>
> *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be
> > going on?
> >
> > THANKS!
>
> =========================
>
> It's the Main relay, 99% sure. As for the other stuff, wires almost
> never seem to need replacing, fuel filter only manifests while climbing
> hill with full car at top speed, cap & rotor last a long time too. Save
> your money for now, unless the cap is arcing or terminals are getting
> burned up.
> You can smack the dash to make it start when it acts up, with key in
> position II. :-)
>
> Don't try to remove the relay completely. With battery disconnected,
> slip the guts out of the shell instead, using the connector for
> something to wiggle it with.
>
> 'Curly'

Kind of hard to resolder the likely bad connections with the relay in
the socket.
A better idea would be to dislconnect the negaitve lead, remoce the
realy(removing the coin tray and the hood latch will help(as will a
trained spider monkey, it is a little tight for a 6'2" person!),remove
the fuse tray cover and remove the entire bracket, it is held in place
with a 10mm bolt.
Remove the relay, carefully remove the pritned circuit/realy assembbly
from the plast case, if you don't know how to solder find someone who
does.
It is too easy to overheat and lossen the copper foil. Remove the old
solder with either solder wick or a solder sucker, resolder with good
quality rosin core(DO NOT USE ACID CORE!!!!!!), one site sugested
protecting thhe soldered surfaces with "silicon confromal spray", andI
think that is a good choice, be sure to tape the relays so that spray
will NOT get on them.
I found the reinstallation the hardest part, Imy big hands just had
major problems getting the 10mm bolt started.
I found this site
http://techauto.tripod.com/
to be vdery helpfull, too bad the link on the ignitor page to
"bench testing" was dead.
And yes the fuel system is under pretyy high preasure, you don't want
a leak
sparying gas all under the hood. replace the wahsers under the "Banjo"
coneectors and the 10mm? bleed bolt, place a celan cloth around and
under the fuel filet to catch any seepage, turn 1 turn an allow
preasurised fuel to esacpe BEFORE losening the "banjo bolts"!
The data I have (from F-Basic testing) is for a 1993 specific but says
it is for ALL fuel injected Civics gives 40~47 with the vacuum hose
disconnected,a nd 30~38 with the vacuum hose conencted. This is at
idel.
Terry

 

"motsco_ _" <"motsco_ _"@interbaun.com> wrote in message news:<4139CE40.3070809@interbaun.com>...
> Ari Rankum wrote:
> > My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. <SNIP>
>
> *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be
> > going on?
> >
> > THANKS!
>
> =========================
>
> It's the Main relay, 99% sure. As for the other stuff, wires almost
> never seem to need replacing, fuel filter only manifests while climbing
> hill with full car at top speed, cap & rotor last a long time too. Save
> your money for now, unless the cap is arcing or terminals are getting
> burned up.
> You can smack the dash to make it start when it acts up, with key in
> position II. :-)
>
> Don't try to remove the relay completely. With battery disconnected,
> slip the guts out of the shell instead, using the connector for
> something to wiggle it with.
>
> 'Curly'

Kind of hard to resolder the likely bad connections with the relay in
the socket.
A better idea would be to dislconnect the negaitve lead, remoce the
realy(removing the coin tray and the hood latch will help(as will a
trained spider monkey, it is a little tight for a 6'2" person!),remove
the fuse tray cover and remove the entire bracket, it is held in place
with a 10mm bolt.
Remove the relay, carefully remove the pritned circuit/realy assembbly
from the plast case, if you don't know how to solder find someone who
does.
It is too easy to overheat and lossen the copper foil. Remove the old
solder with either solder wick or a solder sucker, resolder with good
quality rosin core(DO NOT USE ACID CORE!!!!!!), one site sugested
protecting thhe soldered surfaces with "silicon confromal spray", andI
think that is a good choice, be sure to tape the relays so that spray
will NOT get on them.
I found the reinstallation the hardest part, Imy big hands just had
major problems getting the 10mm bolt started.
I found this site
http://techauto.tripod.com/
to be vdery helpfull, too bad the link on the ignitor page to
"bench testing" was dead.
And yes the fuel system is under pretyy high preasure, you don't want
a leak
sparying gas all under the hood. replace the wahsers under the "Banjo"
coneectors and the 10mm? bleed bolt, place a celan cloth around and
under the fuel filet to catch any seepage, turn 1 turn an allow
preasurised fuel to esacpe BEFORE losening the "banjo bolts"!
The data I have (from F-Basic testing) is for a 1993 specific but says
it is for ALL fuel injected Civics gives 40~47 with the vacuum hose
disconnected,a nd 30~38 with the vacuum hose conencted. This is at
idel.
Terry

 

It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or listening to
all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive on. You'll never get
your solder joints to last like the mfr's. Vibration in your car will get
you right back to an open circuit at the most inopportune time.
Every body has their opinions, just like everyone has an a--hole, but I've
had my a--hole for over fifty years and thirty plus of them me and my
a--hole have been working on Honda's. Take it from experience. Good luck!
H
"Ari Rankum" <ari_rankum@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:cfj_c.747$Va5.220@trnddc01...
> My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions
> that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. First,
> a few statements of fact:
>
> *The car is a Civic DX with a manual trans.
> *The car usually starts right up with no issues.
> *When it does not immediately start, waiting a few minutes and trying
> again is usually all that's required.
> *The problem "feels" like a fuel delivery problem. It cranks nice and
> fast. When it does finally start, it sometimes catches intermitently as
> if it weren't getting enough fuel.
> *My plan of attack for this morning is a complete tune-up. I'm going to
> replace cap, rotor, ignition wires, spark plugs, air and fuel filters.
>
> Questions:
> *What years did Honda have the well-known "igniter problem"? Could a
> 1993 Civic possibly be experiencing this?
> *The fuel filter is the funkiest I've ever seen. The fittings look like
> high pressure fittings. Anything to the procedure of replacing it that
> one without a manual might want to watch out for?
> *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be
> going on?
>
> THANKS!
>

 

It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or listening to
all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive on. You'll never get
your solder joints to last like the mfr's. Vibration in your car will get
you right back to an open circuit at the most inopportune time.
Every body has their opinions, just like everyone has an a--hole, but I've
had my a--hole for over fifty years and thirty plus of them me and my
a--hole have been working on Honda's. Take it from experience. Good luck!
H
"Ari Rankum" <ari_rankum@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:cfj_c.747$Va5.220@trnddc01...
> My wife's 93 Civic is sometimes hard to start. I have a few questions
> that I hope the answers to which will help me find the problem. First,
> a few statements of fact:
>
> *The car is a Civic DX with a manual trans.
> *The car usually starts right up with no issues.
> *When it does not immediately start, waiting a few minutes and trying
> again is usually all that's required.
> *The problem "feels" like a fuel delivery problem. It cranks nice and
> fast. When it does finally start, it sometimes catches intermitently as
> if it weren't getting enough fuel.
> *My plan of attack for this morning is a complete tune-up. I'm going to
> replace cap, rotor, ignition wires, spark plugs, air and fuel filters.
>
> Questions:
> *What years did Honda have the well-known "igniter problem"? Could a
> 1993 Civic possibly be experiencing this?
> *The fuel filter is the funkiest I've ever seen. The fittings look like
> high pressure fittings. Anything to the procedure of replacing it that
> one without a manual might want to watch out for?
> *Anybody else got any ideas from your own experience about what may be
> going on?
>
> THANKS!
>

 

"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.net:

> It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
> listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
> on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.

That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....


And I can save $50 with such little labor.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

 

"Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.net:

> It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
> listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
> on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.

That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....


And I can save $50 with such little labor.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

 

Terry wrote:
>>
>>It's the Main relay, 99% sure. As for the other stuff, wires almost
>>never seem to need replacing, fuel filter only manifests while climbing
>>hill with full car at top speed, cap & rotor last a long time too. Save
>>your money for now, unless the cap is arcing or terminals are getting
>>burned up.
>>You can smack the dash to make it start when it acts up, with key in
>>position II. :-)
>>
>>Don't try to remove the relay completely. With battery disconnected,
>>slip the guts out of the shell instead, using the connector for
>>something to wiggle it with.
>>
>>'Curly'
>
>
> Kind of hard to resolder the likely bad connections with the relay in
> the socket.

======== My Bad wording.. I meant: Don't try to remove the whole
relay... use the connector to pull the guts out of the case (leave the
case bolted to the car) Then take the circuit inside to resolder.

'Curly'

 

Terry wrote:
>>
>>It's the Main relay, 99% sure. As for the other stuff, wires almost
>>never seem to need replacing, fuel filter only manifests while climbing
>>hill with full car at top speed, cap & rotor last a long time too. Save
>>your money for now, unless the cap is arcing or terminals are getting
>>burned up.
>>You can smack the dash to make it start when it acts up, with key in
>>position II. :-)
>>
>>Don't try to remove the relay completely. With battery disconnected,
>>slip the guts out of the shell instead, using the connector for
>>something to wiggle it with.
>>
>>'Curly'
>
>
> Kind of hard to resolder the likely bad connections with the relay in
> the socket.

======== My Bad wording.. I meant: Don't try to remove the whole
relay... use the connector to pull the guts out of the case (leave the
case bolted to the car) Then take the circuit inside to resolder.

'Curly'

 

Howard wrote:
> It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or listening to
> all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive on. You'll never get
> your solder joints to last like the mfr's. Vibration in your car will get
> you right back to an open circuit at the most inopportune time.
> Every body has their opinions, just like everyone has an a--hole, but I've
> had my a--hole for over fifty years and thirty plus of them me and my
> a--hole have been working on Honda's. Take it from experience. Good luck!
> H
> "Ari Rankum" <ari_rankum@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cfj_c.747$Va5.220@trnddc01...

===============
Howard,

I can solder a Honda relay ten times better (read thicker) than the
factory. Why would I buy another POOR one? So I (or the next owner) can
have more trouble down the (dark / rainy / lonely) road????

Beam me up, Scotty.

 

Howard wrote:
> It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or listening to
> all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive on. You'll never get
> your solder joints to last like the mfr's. Vibration in your car will get
> you right back to an open circuit at the most inopportune time.
> Every body has their opinions, just like everyone has an a--hole, but I've
> had my a--hole for over fifty years and thirty plus of them me and my
> a--hole have been working on Honda's. Take it from experience. Good luck!
> H
> "Ari Rankum" <ari_rankum@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
> news:cfj_c.747$Va5.220@trnddc01...

===============
Howard,

I can solder a Honda relay ten times better (read thicker) than the
factory. Why would I buy another POOR one? So I (or the next owner) can
have more trouble down the (dark / rainy / lonely) road????

Beam me up, Scotty.

 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
>
>
>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>
>
> That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
> If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>
> And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>

fwiw, relay contact points burn out too. when they're starting to go,
they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.

in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.

 

Jim Yanik wrote:
> "Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
>
>
>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>
>
> That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
> If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>
> And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>

fwiw, relay contact points burn out too. when they're starting to go,
they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?
relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.

in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.

 

jim beam <nospam@example.net> wrote in news:gJednYm5v8lpW6bcRVn-
qQ@comcast.com:

>
>
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>> "Howard" <howardh1951at@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:71u_c.96991$_h.12688@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>
>>>It's your relay. Just replace the relay. Stop being so cheap or
>>>listening to all these cheapskates, just buy a damn relay and drive
>>>on. You'll never get your solder joints to last like the mfr's.
>>
>>
>> That's nonsense.(about their solder joints lasting longer)
>> If that's the sort of 'advice' you have to offer....
>>
>> And I can save $50 with such little labor.
>>
>
> fwiw, relay contact points burn out too.

When they are not selected properly for the application.

> when they're starting to go,
> they run hot, which probably accelerates/starts the solder problem in
> the first place. remember how bad car ignition used to be when they
> used old fashioned contact breakers and how they didn't last very long?

Yes,electrical engineering was not very advanced in those days.
Also,the buzzer type of ignition had to make/break contact many times per
second(thousands?),greatly increasing wear,and there was also flyback
arcing from the coil,which probably was the biggest factor in contact
burning.The Honda main relay only makes/breaks when the ignition is turned
on/off,once per trip.

> relays are exactly the same type of electrical switch.
>
> in the long run, replacement /is/ the best policy. sure, a resolder job
> is a quick fix, and may even last a while, but if the contact points are
> already running hot, it's a temporary fix. i keep a resoldered spare in
> my glove box, but i use the new one i bought just to be sure.
>

That does not take into consideration bad batches from the factory.
These things are soldered on wave-soldering machines,and it's easy to get
solder problems and marginal solder joints.And even humans can have a bad
day.Like buying a car made on Mondays.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net