"Robert Barr" <not@for.harvest> wrote in message
news:asacl.228$Lr6.86@flpi143.ffdc.sbc.com...
>
>
>>
>>
>> 1-800-999-1009
>>
>> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks. I took your & Elmo's advice & opened a complaint.
>
> The diagnosis is obvious to everyone except the service managers; there's
> only one possible cause that is 100% consistent with the symptoms.
>
> I think the biggest problem is my choice of dealers; at least I have a
> choice, though. I sympathize with folks in rural / distant areas where
> there's only one dealer.

Yeah, you're in the Chicago area. The easiest thing to do first is try
another dealer. Doesn't excuse yours, but it might get you fixed faster.
You can continue to complain anyway.


>

 

On Jan 16, 6:13 pm, Tegger <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> Robert Barr <n...@for.harvest> wrote innews:Ld8cl.13361$yr3.9161@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com:
>
>
>
> >> He's in Canada. He needs to deal with Honda Canada, which is a
> >> separate company from American Honda. I've already told him this,
> >> plus reminded him that his car's under warranty.
>
> > Uhh, actually that was the original poster who's from Canada. I'm
> > from the Chicago area. Thanks though.
>
> Sorry. Mistaken identity.
>
>
>
> > This morning, at -18 F when I left, I had no heat. I got two, then
> > three segments on the gauge. While waiting at a light I lost one and
> > it dropped to two. At -23 when I arrived at work about 20 minutes
> > later, the gauge had dropped back to a single element, which is what
> > it shows before the car is even started.
>
> Man, and I thought we had it bad with the thermometer hovering around
> zero F.
>
> Even with all that, the engine ought to eventually reach normal
> temperature in 15-20 minutes or so if the engine speed is kept
> substantially above idle (as when you're driving), longer if you just
> let it idle. But it WILL eventually warm up completely no matter what.
> Provided the thermostat is working properly, that is.
>
>
>
> > I had to keep a window partly down because my breath was fogging the
> > window and I had no defrost.
>
> > I called them today and they said they'd need to 'inspect the
> > problem', which they've done twice now. They said to bring it in. I
> > asked what they planned to do differently. No reply, but the guy
> > mentioned that 'it might be weather related'.
>
> > Now, I'm sure I've heard a more obtuse comment in recent years, but
> > from my viewpoint here, that pretty much takes the cake. He wound up
> > hanging up on me.
>
> I don't see why this is so hard.
>
> If proper combustion is occurring, it is frankly impossible
> for the engine NOT to reach operating temperature if the thermostat
> is working properly.
>
> Combustion chamber temperatures hover around 2,000F. That heat has
> to go /somewhere/. If the thermostat does not keep the heat
> corralled inside the block until full op temp has been reached,
> it will go out the rad.
>
>
>
> > If anyone has the # for American Honda, please post
> > it.
>
> 1-800-999-1009
>
> http://automobiles.honda.com/informa...relations.aspx
>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQwww.tegger.com/hondafaq/

i've had similar problems with my 92 civic. i'm on my third or fourth
thermostat at this point, lost track. with two different engines.

ironic because the radiator that came with the car was in some way
defective, the car had a tendency to get overly warm from day 1; i
stupidly assumed it was normal because the radiator is so small, and
just took it easy on hot days. learned differently when the radiator
finally clogged and i replaced it. before the head gasket gave out
from all the overheating. which was the excuse i needed to get the
b16. which has "underheated" ever since, just like the original d16
did after the new radiator got put in.

anyway it reminds me of my childhood when you had to cover the car
radiator with cardboard in the winter. and here i thought those days
were gone.

 

I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?
<manreal1@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f18058c9-6a07-4443-9729-47f7b26c793e@z6g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 14, 9:56 pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -35C here this morning.
>
> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> We got this 2008 civic LX in January 2007. Never noticed any problems
> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> broke 1).
>
> I have seen some Civic hybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> reaching operating temperature.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg

Hi live in Winnipeg too and my 2001 honda civic is doing exactly the
same thing. Please let me know if you find out what is causing this
to happen.

 

On 2009-01-30, Markov <markov@someone.com> wrote:
> I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
> weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?

Warmer climate?

--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X

 

Bwahahahahahhah!!! hhahahah!!!
Ok, sorry, that's all.


On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:13:29 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <invalid@invalid.inv>
wrote:

>Man, and I thought we had it bad with the thermometer hovering around
>zero F.

 

"Markov" <markov@someone.com> wrote in message
news:0pwgl.38571$1W7.7637@newsfe11.iad...
>I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
>weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?

What is the rating on your thermostat? That is - at what water temp will it
open? Common ratings are 185/195/205 degrees F (don't know what that would
be in Celsius). If you have the 185, the coolant will not provide enough
heat to warm the car at those temps. I have a 205 degree F in my 86 Civic
and it works well at temps ranging from 90F in the summer to -70F in the
winter....Just a thought>

DaveD

 

On Feb 1, 5:00 am, "Dave D" <dtdod...@acsalaska.net> wrote:
> "Markov" <mar...@someone.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0pwgl.38571$1W7.7637@newsfe11.iad...
>
> >I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
> >weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?
>
> What is the rating on your thermostat? That is - at what water temp will it
> open? Common ratings are 185/195/205 degrees F (don't know what that would
> be in Celsius). If you have the 185, the coolant will not provide enough
> heat to warm the car at those temps. I have a 205 degree F in my 86 Civic
> and it works well at temps ranging from 90F in the summer to -70F in the
> winter....Just a thought>
>
> DaveD

-70F? Where are you, Alaska?

 

"e.meyer" <epmeyer50@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:7f2013f9-fb16-484c-a7fa-6ba7bc052092@t26g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 1, 5:00 am, "Dave D" <dtdod...@acsalaska.net> wrote:
> "Markov" <mar...@someone.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0pwgl.38571$1W7.7637@newsfe11.iad...
>
> >I just change my thermostat and I didn't see much improvement when the
> >weather is close to -30C. Anything to look for ?
>
> What is the rating on your thermostat? That is - at what water temp will
> it
> open? Common ratings are 185/195/205 degrees F (don't know what that would
> be in Celsius). If you have the 185, the coolant will not provide enough
> heat to warm the car at those temps. I have a 205 degree F in my 86 Civic
> and it works well at temps ranging from 90F in the summer to -70F in the
> winter....Just a thought>
>
> DaveD

-70F? Where are you, Alaska?

On the nose. North Pole Alaska to be precise.

DaveD

 

On Jan 14, 7:56 pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
> -35C here this morning.
>
> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. Never noticed anyproblems
> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> broke 1).
>
> I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> reaching operating temperature.
>
> Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> Thanks
> Terry in Winnipeg

Yes,

I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
this fall and still have problems reaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
the problem is the thermostat. Every time I ask them to check the
thermostat, and they haven't removed the thermostat once (which is the
recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
(also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced the
thermostat and she was fine.

My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
know how it goes.

I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
a good hill.

FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
posted.

Corry

 

On Feb 3, 9:25 am, corrymar...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Jan 14, 7:56 pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > -35C here this morning.
>
> > My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. I started the car
> > and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. The block heater was
> > plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. After the brief warmup,
> > its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>
> > The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). I
> > finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
> > RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. And when I came to red lights
> > in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>
> > Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
> > (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
> > don't run the heater fan at full blast. Problem is, at 1/2, the
> > heater barely warms up the interior of the car. However, with the
> > heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
> > spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>
> > We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. Never noticed anyproblems
> > last winter, but it really was never this cold either. The car has
> > 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>
> > I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
> > both are perfectly fine. Entertained damming the radiator with
> > cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
> > without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. At these
> > temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
> > the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
> > broke 1).
>
> > I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
> > from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. I may try that
> > yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. I have
> > owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
> > reaching operating temperature.
>
> > Has anyone else experienced this problem? Anything I am missing here?
>
> > Thanks
> > Terry in Winnipeg
>
> Yes,
>
> I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
> this fall and still haveproblemsreaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
> the problem is thethermostat. Every time I ask them to check thethermostat, and they haven't removed thethermostatonce (which is the
> recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
> (also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced thethermostatand she was fine.
>
> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
> temperature, thethermostatshould open and close to keep it at
> temperature. I'm paying them to replace thethermostatat my cost,
> and save the parts for me. (If I get an openthermostatback I'll be
> getting unglued). Thethermostatshould be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.
>
> I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
> getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
> friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
> long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
> a good hill.
>
> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.
>
> Corry

Forgot to mention that I drive an 07 Civic. This is its first cold
winter, so I'm only noticing the problem now.

C

 

(corrymartin@gmail.com) writes:
> On Jan 14, 7:56=A0pm, loewent <loew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> -35C here this morning.
>>
>> My daily commute is about 35kms, mostly highway. =A0I started the car
>> and allowed it to run for about 5 minutes. =A0The block heater was
>> plugged in, so no excuses for being too cold. =A0After the brief warmup,
>> its about 100ft to the highway, then highway speeds.
>>
>> The temp gauge never moved the whole way to the city (20kms). =A0I
>> finally got it to go to about 1/4 by running in a lower gear at higher
>> RPM, but it normally runs around 1/2. =A0And when I came to red lights
>> in the city, the temp gauge would go down to 0 within a minute.
>>
>> Called the dealer today, and just like every other problem I have
>> (touchy brakes, rattles), 'its normal operation' and he recommended I
>> don't run the heater fan at full blast. =A0Problem is, at 1/2, the
>> heater barely warms up the interior of the car. =A0However, with the
>> heater fan running slower, I was able to get the car to the normal
>> spot on the gauge after about 25 minutes.
>>
>> We got this 2008civicLX in January2007. =A0Never noticed anyproblems
>> last winter, but it really was never this cold either. =A0The car has
>> 32000kms on it, 2 oil changes.
>>
>> I have checked the coolant level in the radiator and the resevoir, and
>> both are perfectly fine. =A0Entertained damming the radiator with
>> cardboard, however, the outside surface of the rad is not accessible
>> without removing one of the plastic shrouds on the bumper. =A0At these
>> temps, its not enjoyable to be outside working on this, and besides,
>> the plastic clips would just break due to the temperature (already
>> broke 1).
>>
>> I have seen someCivichybrid forums talk about using pipe insulation
>> from Home Depot to block the openings in the grill. =A0I may try that
>> yet, but I just have this feeling that something is wrong. =A0I have
>> owned many Hondas, and have never had a problem with the vehicle
>> reaching operating temperature.
>>
>> Has anyone else experienced this problem? =A0Anything I am missing here?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Terry in Winnipeg
>
> Yes,
>
> I'm having the exact same problem. I've taken my car in four times
> this fall and still have problems reaching temperature. I'm 95% sure
> the problem is the thermostat. Every time I ask them to check the
> thermostat, and they haven't removed the thermostat once (which is the
> recommended method in the dealer service manual). My old Acura Integra
> (also an aluminum 1.8L) had the same problem once, I replaced the
> thermostat and she was fine.
>
> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
> temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
> and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
> getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.
>
> I'm sure you've noticed your gas consumption increase as well- I'm
> getting about 250km to a tank right now, just slightly better than my
> friends Land Rover. You may have also noticed the temperature drop on
> long downhill roads... I can usually drop the temp from 1/2 to 1/6 on
> a good hill.
>
> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.
>
> Corry
>



Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.

If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda Canada
is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada is required
to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not allowed to sell
automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified emissions. An engine that
does not warm up to operating temperature, within a certain time frame, will
not meet the Fed specs. Raise a stink with the dealer, Honda Canada, and
Transport Canada. You paid lots of money to have Honda build a car that
is supposed to meet the Canadian emissions specs.

Look at you warranty booklet, read it carefully. Contact Transport Canada.
Do you live in a province that requires emission tests for licence renewal
(i.e. Ontario, British Columbia)? You may want to tell them Honda has
possibly allowed polluting automobiles to operate on their roads.

3Gee Canadian Hondas (1986 to 1989 Accords) list an optional (hotter)
thermostat (with operation specs [temps etc.]) in the Honda Canadian
workshop manual.

 

cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmd9ap$ovn$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:

> (corrymartin@gmail.com) writes:

>>
>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>> posted.
>>
>> Corry
>>
>
>
>
> Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.
>
> If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda
> Canada is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada
> is required to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not
> allowed to sell automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified
> emissions. An engine that does not warm up to operating temperature,
> within a certain time frame, will not meet the Fed specs.



It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal
limits by a significant amount.

You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are
the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the
Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then
emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple
expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared
thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It
was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully
warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then
the thermostat is bad.

I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an
issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by
spring.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

> My problem is with the dealer here in Whitehorse- they keep telling me
> not to run the heater at full, or that 'these little engines don't
> produce as much heat'. It doesn't make sense. If the engine is at
> temperature, the thermostat should open and close to keep it at
> temperature. I'm paying them to replace the thermostat at my cost,
> and save the parts for me. (If I get an open thermostat back I'll be
> getting unglued). The thermostat should be in this week, I'll let you
> know how it goes.

Same BS I get from my dealer, they claim the heater core, which takes
water before the thermostat, is actually capable of cooling the engine
in this weather. Doesn't make any sense, sounds like a routing or
valving issue to me. No way should coolant flow be that high through
a heater core.


> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
> posted.

I've used some 1/2" pipe insulation in the gaps of the grill. See
pics at URL below, mine is the same. Definitely helps it get up to
temperature on the hwy. From what I understand, this problem is even
worse on hybrid civics.

http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f...n-grill-16922/

t

 

Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:
> cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
> news:gmd9ap$ovn$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:
>
>> (corrymartin@gmail.com) writes:
>
>>>
>>> FYI: I've installed some cardboard in front of the bumper, at least
>>> now it reaches temperature when I'm on the highway... I'll keep you
>>> posted.
>>>
>>> Corry
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is your car under warranty? Specifically the emissions warranty.
>>
>> If your engine is not warming up, it is polluting the air and Honda
>> Canada is breaking the Canadian Federal emissions laws. Honda Canada
>> is required to meet Canadian Federal specs for emissions. They are not
>> allowed to sell automobiles in Canada that exceed the specified
>> emissions. An engine that does not warm up to operating temperature,
>> within a certain time frame, will not meet the Fed specs.
>
>
>
> It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed federal
> limits by a significant amount.
>
> You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system are
> the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working properly, the
> Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working properly, then
> emissions are within specified limits regardless of coolant temperature.

Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding
(and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for engine
warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not the
provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that exits the
exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test 'program' (driving
test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents, will show high readings.


>
> What totally baffles me is that nobody seems to want to try the very simple
> expedient of checking the coolant outlet at the head with an infrared
> thermometer. All dealers have got to have one of those. *I* have one. It
> was all of $75. You should see about 205F at the "sweet spot" when fully
> warm. If it's lower than that with no accompanying Check Engine light, then
> the thermostat is bad.

And the test for stats is the same as it has always been... take the stat
out... hang it in a pot of water... hang in a good thermometer... turn the
heat on... make note of the temps and action of the stat... consult the
factory workshop manuals for the specific details of how the action and
temps are supposed to relate.


>
> I'm convinced Honda has simply had a run of bum thermostats, hardly an
> issue worth snitching to the cops for. Bet there's a TSB out on this by
> spring.
>

At 30 to 50 below in the Yukon, spring is a LONG time away! At 30 to 50
below ya want some fire under your ***. If a threat of snitching gets that
fire sooner, well then, what the hell! :-) :-)

>
> --
> Tegger
>
> The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
> www.tegger.com/hondafaq/

 

cf005@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (M.A. Stewart) wrote in
news:gmfr8l$fr8$1@theodyn.ncf.ca:

> Tegger (invalid@invalid.inv) writes:

>>
>>
>> It will also turn on the Check Engine light if emissions exceed
>> federal limits by a significant amount.
>>
>> You're forgetting that the primary components of the emissions system
>> are the oxygen sensors and the cat. If either is not working
>> properly, the Check Engine light will illuminate. If both ARE working
>> properly, then emissions are within specified limits regardless of
>> coolant temperature.
>
> Ahh... the possible loophole for the manufacturers. My understanding
> (and I'm not saying it is correct) is that there is a time limit for
> engine warm up, because when the cars are tested by the 'Feds' (not
> the provinces or possibly the states), they 'bag' everything that
> exits the exhaust. If the engine does not warm up during the test
> 'program' (driving test routine), the bag, when analysed for contents,
> will show high readings.



Oxygen sensors/AF sensors are active after about 30 seconds from a cold
start. Their internal heaters are the reason why. The 2008 cat is
functional after about the same length of time. Its cheek-to-jowl proximity
to the exhaust ports is why.

It is true that insufficiently warmed-up engines of /any/ year will exhibit
high HC readings (but stunningly low NO numbers!) compared to a fully
warmed-up one, but you MUST realize how stupidly low ALL the readings are
these days. CO, for one, is now non-existent to Ontario's DriveClean, since
its equipment "only" goes to two decimal places. You'll see "0.00%" in that
slot. An uncontrolled engine puts out roughly 4%-10% CO.

A cold engine of 2008 vintage puts out less HC/CO/NO than a fully-warm
engine did in 1991. After the first half-minute, anyway.

I've been told that, in terms of measured emissions, auto exhaust is
CLEANER than the ambient air in large cities, and has been so since 1986.

The US federal EPA says that ambient air is now 57% cleaner in ABSOLUTE
terms than it was in 1970, in spite of a 157% increase in vehicular traffic
from then to now.

If you want to get all huffy and go squealing to the feds that the Big Bad
Automaker is Destroying the Environment, you should have a few facts at
hand before you make a total fool of yourself.


--
Tegger

The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/